Ancient coin market

I remember that coin JA, very nice but way, way overpriced.

I used to worry about noob ancient collectors being sold fakes by dodgy sellers.

Now it seems their biggest problem is 'reputable' people trying to sell them authentic coins at 5 or 10 times the market price

 

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Wait until the CC statement comes though.

Actually, I have something sad to report. I actually sold 300 nice f+/vf LRBs yesterday. I KNOW! Me! Only thing I can say is my wife made me do it, since she was in the car with me when I walked out with 500 LRBs, (and I don't even collect romans). I had to tell her that I would sell them off, and GD it she held me to it. That is the LAST time she ever goes with me to pick up coins.

Oh well, I kept the best 100, and sold off to some here another 100 of the better ones, and still made a profit, but I just know I will be tossing and turning wishing I had those other 300 back........

 

You gotta put your wife in her place, Chris. That's what I did with mine. I've got her right where she wants me!

 

I don't think NGC would be the cause of the prices doubling - it would just be more collectors moving into the market. I also don't see slabbed coins realizing a premium versus if they weren't slabbed, but I do see them increasing the appeal of ancients. Counterfeits are much harder to find in Ancients than in US coins and while NGC doesn't guarantee its legitimacy, David Vagi's opinion is enough for me.

Additionally, NGC slabbing ancients brings some degree of normalcy in grading and "details" grading. Out of anything, NGC's detection of edge problems, surface issues, etc. is where I see the greatest value. I've tracked the previous sales of many, many coins and it's scary to see just how much variation there is in the opinions from auction houses. NGC, on the other hand, has been very accurate from what I've seen, and much stricter than any auction house.

My personal collection is composed of world, US, and Ancient coins, all sitting in a box. My latest purchase, the Euainetos dekadrachm I posted in another thread, is a very difficult coin to store alongside my others as it is very high relief - it doesn't fit in an AirTite, CoinWorld holder, or any other holder I've found. Most of my aurei are in CoinWorld holders which works fine, but I'm going to be getting everything slabbed by NGC in the next couple months. I'm not planning on selling for a long time but I prefer them that way. I would love it if NGC would remove the prongs from their holders and just have an unobstructed view of the coin, but that's why I'm having pictures taken outside of their holders.

I know Ancient collectors love the feel of their coins in the raw (as do I, especially with the heavy octadrachms and dekadrachm in my collection), but in the interest of being able to show high grade coins to others and let them hold the coins without me breaking into a sweat at them creating wear on a mint state aureus, and to be able to hold them more often myself, I don't mind the plastic entombment.

Early US copper collectors have been of the same mentality, that raw coins are preferred, but some of the largest copper dealers just moved to almost completely slabbed in the last few months. I think it will take a lot longer for ancients to move into slabs more often but I think it will happen over time.

As always, buy the coin, not the holder, but personally, I'm much more willing to buy an aureus graded by NGC problem free with a solid strike/surface over the internet without having to inspect it in-hand than I would be buying an ungraded one.

You can always crack it out.

 

I don't collect Ancient coins (or any coins, for that matter). That said, I do research on many numismatic pieces. So here is my opinion:

With Ancients (as with anything else), it's a matter of supply and demand.

Many people's understanding of Roman history does not got beyond "The Twelve Caesars." and so, these coins will fetch a higher price tag as people work hard to complete this "set."

Other "sets" like the Caesars' wives get a premimuim, also.

Most super high quality anything (except later Roman empire coins) will get a higher purchase price. That said, many dealers delude themselves into believing that a high quality common Ancient should command an inflated price. They feel a slab justifies their delusion. Not.

That said, middle-of-the-road, but decent quaility coins are out there for a reasonable price.

For example, this rather unattractive, but historically fascinating Carausius went for $141 at a recent heritage auction (as part of a set that included a nice, but unremarkable Probus with a cracked flan and a possibly bronze-diseased Tetricus):



I am certain that the individual who purchased this coin did so with the idea that this coin complimented his study of the Third Century Roman crisis. He didn't buy this coin because it was the highest quality available or for bragging rights.

guy

 

It was the NGC employee in your clip that claimed prices could double, not me, most NGC customers are US coin collectors and not ancient collectors, yet. They are familiar with slabs and also grades and price guides. The talk here of increasing interest in Ancients is primarily in the US, these coins have been collected elsewhere for hundreds of years at a steady rate.

If NGCs company line is that ancients could double in price then they have obviously decided to start pushing ancients. They want a whole new area of coins that they can grade, slab and authenticate, all for a price of course.

In a way they could set the price, they have their own price guides which become self fulfilling after a while as they use sale prices where the buyers used their guides to decide highest bids!!!

Why is this needed on anything under a 5K coin? Its the sellers responsibility to describe their product fully and clearly, if they cant the buyers will move elsewhere. The market does not need to be sterilized in this way IMHO.

Your coins, your choice and beautiful they are. My choice would be to send them to David Sear.

If NGC has managed to persuade collectors that 50 and 100 year old coins need to be slabbed just what do we need to do to preserve coins that are 2000 or even 3000 years old, I'm sure they will have a costly solution!

 

I wonder if he bought it because he knew it was part of the set including the famous triple portrait coins where Carausius tried to equate himself with Diocletian and Maximianus and issued similar coins in their names? I wonder if buyers of slabbed coins will care about such things or if they would just consider it another VF 3/3 which they would trade in a second for a VF 3/4 with only one G? If they sent the coin for a Sear certificate (something I have never done) they could get a write up on the coin along with a photo identifying the specimen. What comes with a slab?

I have absolutely nothing against slabs except that you can not open and reclose them to examine or photograph the coin. Once opened, they are just wasted money. Counting Registered Mail how much does a slab cost? If they do not increase the selling price of the coin over the equivalent Raw, I can only assume that they are being produced in wholesale quantities at a lot less than the advertised prices. Perhaps they are being produced in China for all I know. Since you can't examine the coin anymore you must trust whoever sealed it. Is there nothing to be learned by handling the coins themselves? I do agree that ancients will move into slabs increasingly as a replacement for the Athena Fund shares of 20 years ago which provided a way for those who do not care about coins to invest in them with no stress of having to learn what they are. It does not bother me to see $10,000 coins slabbed because the price lost even if they are set free is minuscule compared to the coin value. The question is how this will effect the trade in $20 to $100 coins where this recurring expense (every time a coin is sold?) becomes significent? The only slabbed coin I have personally owned (and sawed out) cost me $10. I prefer we postpone this absurd eventuality as long as possible.

I was sad to hear that no one makes a stock holder that fits a dekadrachm but I can not help thinking that anyone who can afford the coin could also afford to have a proper holder fabricated. Do we have slabs for Liberal aes grave yet?

 

"Conservation — Select ancient coins are eligible for conservation work by NCS Ancients. Details forthcoming."

http://www.ngccoin.com/ancients/index.aspx

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I don't know exactly what it is about these companies that repulses and saddens me so much - I found the above near to where their small print confirms that 'Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed'.

I need to drop out of this thread - I can feel my blood pressure rising :veryangry:

 

I'm afraid your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that the dealer in the clip doesn't and never has worked for NGC. Rather, he's a private dealer who sets up at almost all national shows.

It costs $35 to slab a coin < $3K in value. The price tiers increase as value goes up, but only slightly. I agree that there's a point at which it doesn't make sense to spend the $35 to get it slabbed, but for a collector just entering the market, I think it would save a lot of potential headaches. As for buyers moving elsewhere when sellers don't fully describe their product, that's apparently not going to happen. Major auction houses are very frequently understating problems on high value coins. The most egregious example I ran into in the last couple weeks was at the Goldberg sale - they had a $30-40K coin that was listed as a "pleasing problem-free example". Alas, it had a major scratch right on the highest points of the obverse which was a major visual distraction. I found the previous two sales of the coin and neither auction mentioned it either. I know there's a degree of acceptable problem here but this was pretty bad.

Additionally, up until two days before the auction, they had a Trajan aureus available on the auction which was already up to $20K in online bidding with multiple bidders. They were then told by David Vagi (the same person that is the Director of NGC Ancients) that it was fake and they withdrew the lot.

Large auction houses guarantee the legitimacy of their coins for life but it's still possible to make mistakes and frankly, I'll take as many opinions as I can get on a coin.

It's easy to damage coins when raw. Yes, they've survived so far, but many of them haven't been in people's hands. I just see it as easier to store/manage when in holders, and it is definitely safer for specific high grade coins in my eyes.

 

I believe you are putting too much weight in Mr. Vagi's opinion. Coins like that always have varied opinions. Mr Vagi is a nice man, but i could list 10 numismatists i would value higher or equal to his opinion.

I just hate the thought of ancients being like us coins. I do my part and crack a slab every chance i get.

 

I wasn't the one who pulled the lot listing, but to each their own (and the scratched coin I mentioned was found by myself during lot viewing, and verified by Ira Goldberg)

I just know that of Ancients in my areas of focus that I've bought holdered and subsequently cracked out, I haven't been disappointed at all.

 

Fair enough, and i do not compete in your arena, but i would say coins i have bought from certain dealers i have always been pleased with as well. No difference to me between an ngc slab and certain flips from some dealers, except i can touch, weigh, and examine mine.

 

I agree - and with a number of dealers, I much prefer buying non-slabbed as well as I know I can trust their opinions. Auction houses have just recently put a bad taste in my mouth and traveling to Europe every few weeks gets expensive and tiresome. That being said, I doubt we're going to see many auction houses, let alone European auction houses, use NGC, so this is probably a moot point, but I'd certainly love to see some regulation when it comes to declaring problems (i.e. "almost unnoticeable edge bump" should not be the remnants of a blind person taking a hacksaw to the side of the coin...)

 

Well, it certainly does for that example - the TPGs do want 'in' to the ancients market though and they will use their current customer bases to do so over the next few years. They will push ancients as eventually they will need to branch out from US coins. I really hope ancients are not pushed as the new 'precious metals'.

I just think the whole thing is unnecessary, for your coins (10K+) maybe but for everything else no. The reason some traditional US collectors are now into ancients is because they got sick of the regimented regime that had developed. Ancients are a completely different experience and long may they be.

Doug might be right and slabs are inevitable, the market will decide whats needed by itself. Thankfully so far they are scarce and only amateurs covet them over the provenience of a respected dealer or even, shock horror their own knowledge and opinions. Part of the fun of ancients is hunting out the best deals and discarding the fakes, slab everything and that's all gone.

I also think Doug is correct in thinking the slab collectors would only be interested in numbers. Your collection is the exception that proves the rule TBH. 99.9% of ancients do not need a TPG to grade, authenticate and slab for protection a 2000 year old coin, yours may be different.

 

I do not disagree. I hear from Ed Waddell copper coins are really getting bad, with even prestigious european firms not declaring tooling and especially smoothing.

I think the main thing that could make it better is more educated buyers returning misdescribed lots. Make the auction houses and consignors lose money when they misdescribe the coins.

One other thing i hate about slabs is how the auction house refuses to be held accountible for a coin if its in a slab. I am sure a lot of auction houses would love all slabbed ancients, so they do not need to tell you if there is a problem.

Oh well, i cannot change this issue. I do not spend enough to be noticed. I am not a elavator tycoon unfortunately.

 

Interestingly, when I read the opinions and arguments in this thread, I find them supporting my belief that ancient coins should never be slabbed.

Realistically, how do you evaluate an ancient coin that's in a slab? How can you judge the amount of smoothing on a Roman bronze, and analyze whether it crosses the boundary between acceptable smoothing and unacceptable tooling for that coin? Are you really able to detect small defects that the auction house either missed or neglected to mention, if the coin is slabbed?

Of one thing I'm certain: my dealer would NEVER recommend purchasing a coin for my collection unless he were able to personally examine it unslabbed. Are other collectors of ancient coins likely to accept slabbed coins that can't be examined firsthand? I'm very doubtful this is true, at least in the current market. If a coin has a verifiable provenance that dates back decades, or even centuries, then it might not be necessary to examine it unslabbed, but even in these circumstances I personally would not feel comfortable purchasing a slabbed ancient coin.

Finally, as I've written previously, nothing compares to the feeling of holding an ancient coin, especially a large bronze, in your hand. This isn't the same as modern coins, and I'd probably ONLY buy modern coins that are slabbed (should I ever collect these coins). But ancients are different.

 

Exactly!!!!!

 

Although, I would say holding a Russian 5 kopeck from the 18th century, or a 1797 tuppence, is about the same feeling.

I agree with IdesofMarch, but just would apply it to about any coin that you can actually handle and touch. Heck, I love handling my draped bust silver dollars as well.

I bet that last statement is going to garner screams of horror from any US collector reading it.

 

Not necessarily. I have a drawer-full of raw Kennedy Half Dollars, and I love to go through them, look at them this way and that, lay them down on a nice clean piece of felt and line them up for a team picture. I use gloves of course, but those coins are a lot more fun than the ones in the slabs - it's apples and oranges. I don't mind slabs at all in fact - I buy coins that appeal to me. But I'm happy that some of my higher-grade pieces are protected by the slabs. I wouldn't take those out for physical perusal anyway, so what does the shape of the plastic matter?

 

I agree, and I've also had my fair share of fun cracking out US coins - I've cracked out a $50 slug (it takes effort to hold your hand up when holding it) and I had a pair of 1795 $5 and 1795 $10s which I cracked out as well.

As for long term storage, my nicer coins are in a safety deposit box anyway, so I get most of my enjoyment out of images. Slabs help ensure they aren't going to rattle around and bump up against each other, and to prevent cabinet friction (as well as reduce direct contact with some surface which could tone it rapidly). And while they do obscure some of the edges, it isn't that hard to still see the coin.

On my desk raw is a VF sestertius of Hadrian and a few dupondi which I frequently play with and I agree, these types of coins raw provide loads of enjoyment and should most definitely remain raw.