Is hairline chatter related to metal flow?

Proof coins are not manufactured the same as business strikes Doug.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

The decision to say how it was created is by definition mint state, and all coins, regardless of how poorly they are made, are mint state if still in that condition. What this means is you do not deduct for grading weak strikes, rusted dies, worn dies, planchet defects, planchet marks, etc. However, ANY damage done by wear is immediate lowering of the grade. This is why you can have a bad planchet, weakly struck from rusted dies POS have the same grade as a sharply struck pristine issue. However, put one tiny wear mark on the sharply struck pristine issue and immediately is "circulated" and MUCH lower graded than the ugly, poorly struck POS. Even though 99% of all non-collectors and "non-educated" collectors would pick the well struck coin with a tiny wear mark as the superior coin to collect.

This is the error I believe the earliest collectors made, and perpetuate today. How about simply evaluating a coin based upon % of perfection? Deduct grades for ANYTHING wrong with it, be it bad strike, planchet marks, rusted dies, or wear. Treat ALL defects equally, and grade according to what % of a perfect strike is left.

Granted, US collectors would have to get used to the fact that some issues may have left the mint only a 45, but THAT IS OK. Grades should simply be a measure of how close to a perfect coin a specimen is, not WHY it is.

This is how ancient collectors grade, and its much easier.

 

That is like comparing apples to oranges by TPG standards most ancient coins would grade genuine cleaned, although NGC does grade ancients i have seen them. I do not disagree with your principal though coins should be graded like you suggest to address problems like weak strike and pre strike chatter. On the flip side though it allows me to cherry pick superior coins because some people only look at what the slab says and not the coin inside.

 

Chris, I'm not advocating the current system - I'm just trying to understand it as a new collector. I'm sure your system would have its benefits, but I just don't have enough experience to judge whether it would be superior.

I think I would have purchased my toned coins regardless of what grading system was used to assess them, because ultimately it's a matter of the heart. Why else would some collectors go low-ball, or mid-grade, or holed? Something about those coins speaks to them, and overrules another person's opinion of their grade.

My guess is that you could fiddle endlessly, creating new ultra-empirical grading systems, and what you'd end up with is a whole lot of controversy and disagreement, which is basically what we already have.

 

It creates a whole world of cherry picking opportunities. It also explains a whole world of price discrepancies if you understand this. This is why there are always such variations in prices in the same grade. However, a lot of people like you said do not pay attention to the actual coin, just the grade on the slab.

Regarding NGC grading ancients...........that is a sore point. I have a whole rant about their shortcomings over in the ancient/world section. Basically its them coming in with US grading standards and applying them to ancients who have been grading coins and developing our own system of grading long before any pilgrim shot his first turkey. I have bandsawed quite a few of their slabs, IF I like the coin enough to have to put up with cracking open the plastic. Any ancient in TPG plastic is an automatic $20 deduction in bid from me for having to put up with it.

To JA, I understand sir, and everyone needs to understand the current system. I am simply pointing out a major shortcoming to it. I believe if you understand this shortcoming it will help you not only understand pricing better, but maybe also position you better to take advantage of it like matthew points out. More education is always better in my view.

 

Heres a link to a website which details how the U.S. Mint makes coins with a pic clearly showing the coins entering the annealing oven on a conveyor belt but not one at a time and they are definitely piled up onto each other i dont think you get anymore definitive proof than that.........

http://www.machinesales.com/blog/2012/12/machines-production-silver-gold-coins/

 

Planchets are covered in in small and large scratches. I'm am told by a highly reliable source that most of these scratches are placed on the planchets by machine designed for this purpose. I have not yet been able to confirm this independently but the reaspon for this marking is ostensibly to make it easier for the erquipment to handle the planchets.
They increase the coefficients of friction. This marking is easily understood if you look at a severely off-center coin since the struck portion might be mark free while the unstruck part is heavily banged up.

The last bit of modern coins to be struck is around the periphery. This is why the letters and dates are often not fullt struck; they weren't in the coining chamber long enough. This simply often will leave the chicken scratyches arounf the edge. If you look on many of these
specimens you'll also see the same effect on the highest points such as the curl on the Washington quarter. This is the second to the last thing to fill on most specimens and quite commonly these retained planchet marks will remain.

 

That seems to coincide with the article Matthew just posted...

 

I just got off the phone with Michael Lantz who worked at the US Mint in Denver starting in 1961 until his retirement sometime in the 90's.

He stated that circulating blanks were annealed in large drums with a tumbling motion and that converoy belts were never used during his tenure.

Annealing chatter is not always eliminated from the coins surface during the striking process. Strang annealing hits are not always removed from the high points of the CnClad coins during the striking process. As such, since these marks occured before the strike, they may or may not affect the eventual grade. It totally depends upon the severity of the mark.

Proof coins, on the other hand are annealed on belts in the San Francisco facility.

 

Thanks for your research, Lee. This thread has been most instructive.

 

You sir are something else......:ninja: and Doug i think that means you were wrong no?

Edited for rules on behavior. See below message.

 

You're both right, or you're both wrong. Take your pick.

The conveyor belt method does get used for proofs. You can see it in the video I posted.

 

This wasnt about the conveyor belt and you know it jhon anthony....

 

OK, lol. I don't want to get hit with any friendly fire. Peace.

 

Smileys are not allowed?

 

I edited the above post # 51 even though Doug will not appreciate it. He can handle his own, but I think he would be hesitant in doing so. The rules do not permit taunting, which is how I saw the part I removed. There are few people on the forum who have not been wrong or mistaken before. Doug and I disagree on several things, but we don't do this.
Jim

 

I meant nothing personal and will be the first to admit im a noob and am wrong on a lot of things. I have also praised Dougs knowledge as far superior to my own, Im sure Doug will get his chance to rub me I promise. Do me at least one favor and let Doug know what it is you removed as the red EDITED looks far worse than what was there.

 

No. Doug was not wrong as annealing does occur on belts for proof coinage.

This entire exercise was a learning experience for me (and hopefully for others) in that I'd always heard annealing drums yet had never heard of annealing conveyor's.

Folksm we need to remember that business strike coinage and proof coinage are produced using "different" manufacturing methods. One simply enables a reasonable strike while the other guarantee's a high quality mirror finish of a high relief coin.

 

To be fair i never questioned the belt..... not once.....

 

ohhh i knew i read about this some where.....

and you can read more about it here....

http://www.ikegroup.info/?page_id=195