A grade of 70 cannot exist.

I was looking at two pieces, same date, one PR69DCAM, another PR70DCAM, both PCGS. For the life of me, I could not discern a difference between the two coins. But this thread isn't about my mediocre grading skills. It's about a logical fallacy.

It occurred to me that if you say a coin is perfect, that is the same as saying that no other coin of its kind exists with better features. But you can't possibly make such an assertion if you haven't examined every single coin of its kind, which is impossible.

Therefore, a grade of 70 is impossible, unless you redefine 70 to mean perfect unless proven otherwise, which is to say, 69.

 

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I think you are forgetting that the grades of PR/PF70 and MS70 as used by the major TPGs (PCGS and NGC) are proprietary grade standards that are defined by those companies. Therefore, if they note that an MS70 can have a large gash across the center of the coin then that would be the definition of MS70. What you see in a PCGS or NGC holder largely adheres to their standards, not theoretical standards from somewhere else.

 

tpg/market grading (subjective to a point) and absolutist philosophy (objective) do not mix :devil:

 

Yes, but that doesn't negate my point. Regardless how arbitrary the characteristics of the upper limit may be, they've nonetheless set an upper limit. Without examining every minted coin of a particular type, it's impossible to say that there isn't a coin out there, somewhere, that doesn't exceed that limit.

 

Again, the TPG definition is not a line, but is rather a range. Therefore, it is not the same as theory.

 

Well, I don't mean to sound argumentative, but even if it's a range, you can't possible know if some coin out there, somewhere, exceeds that range, unless you've graded them all.

 

You're still missing my point. The TPGs do not view the PR/PF70 or MS70 grades handed out as meaning there can be no finer coin for the type. What they mean is that any coin given the PR/PF70 or MS70 grade meets their minimal proprietary standard for the grade. This is not different than calling a coin PR/PF65 or MS65; the coins meet the proprietary standards.

In other words, they do not care in the least if there is a coin nicer than one they give a 70 grade to because that does not factor into their definitions.

 

Ah. I see. It's a minimal standard, whereas I'm seeing it as an upper limit. Once again, you've clarified things very succinctly.

 

I'd like to think I was succinct, but it took me long enough to put into words the thoughts I was thinking!

 

Theoretically there is no such thing as perfection but TPG's have set criteria of what makes a coin an MS70 and if all criteria is met than it is an MS70. An MS70 does not mean that the coin is flawless but it's pretty darn close. I have an MS70 2012 ASE graded by NGC. It's a beautiful coin but I went through and examined every square millimeter and found a tiny milk spot. It's barely noticeable but it's there. NGC probably noticed that as well but it was too minuscule to be taken a whole point down so they kept it at the 70.

NGC and other TPG companies have their standards on what can knock a point down and how severe it has to be. So yeah no coin is truly perfect. And honestly, without a loupe, I don't even notice the difference between an MS69 and an MS70 most of the time, so it's really up to you on how you want to perceive "perfection".

-theSharpGun

 

Who used the word perfect? MS/PF 70 is simply the highest grade PCGS or NGC can issue. The exact wording from each company is:

PCGS MS/PR-70

http://www.pcgs.com/grades.html

NGC MS/PF-70

http://www.ngccoin.com/coingrading/ngc-coin-grading-process.aspx

A 70 grade is calling the coin "perfect" in the context of there being no post-mint damage (imperfections).

Using the NGC definition it's easy to explain why the 70 grade can be used without the company seeing every coin. If a coin meets that above definition "having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification" then it can be called a 70.

 

Here's what gets me. Let's consider a modern NCLT with no post-production imperfections, however many production imperfections easily seen by the naked eye. Wouldn't it be better not to receive a 70?

 

Does that exist or are you posing a hypothetical?

 

Here's another scenario.

A MS70 grade was given by employee X at a major TPG because he was having a really good day from the time he got up in the morning. Everything just seemed to go his way. His joyous mood affected his grading in a good and positive way.

Now, employee Y graded the same coin as an MS69 but since his day started off the wrong way because he got pulled over speeding trying to make it to work because he was running late after he spilled hot coffee on his pants. His morning was flawed so it affected his grading in a more negative way.


TPG consist of humans. Most should understand what I'm trying to point out. This is why I don't give a darn about TPGs or their paid opinion. I buy what I like and at the price I feel is fair to myself and that's all that matters when it comes to buying and collecting coins.

:thumb:

 

This explains why I have some 69s that look nicer than some 70s and some 70s that do not look as nice as some 69s. :smile TC

 

Your right some where i read that one in a thousand would grade PR-70..Ebay is eat up with pr-70 coins being auctioned everyday..and bringing unrealixed prices wheather it is pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, even some of the Kennedy are knock tops off prices...Then you go to their site and look at prices realized..WOW...Completed listing is unreal...Some of the auctions I see shield bidders for the site it is pretty obvious..I stay away from those sites..There are many out there that is on the up and up..They are the ones you stick with...LJ

 

If a TPG ever comes across that coin that you say, "exceeds that range" then that coin would get an MS70 or a PF70 and nothing more. The highest the scale goes is 70, end of story.

 

"Perfection" is and always has been "relative"!

What's perfect for you may not be perfect for me.

My wife, is perfect for me but then, you might not like blondes.




My car is perfect for me but you might not care for Ford's.

The MS/PR70 grade is just as subjective to interpretation as the above two examples in that, at the time (2 - 5 seconds) the coin was graded, the grader did not "notice" any flaws and as such, deemed it perfect.

Note PCGS's definition of MS/PR70 which leaves the door wide open for interpretation:

MS/PR70 As Struck, with full strike

No mention of hits whether they are acceptable hits or not. No mention of focal areas. No mention of luster. No mention of "imperfections.

Just "As Struck, with full strike."