No one has to agree with me, but the fact of the matter is the majority of the market does. And things will stay the way they are until that changes.
It's an interesting situation because right now the TPG's have more market power than their customers, so things won't change until something happens to disturb the market. It's a little like the auto industry. The "Big Three" US automakers [the equivalent of PCGS, NGC, ICG and ANACS in the coin industry] were able to market the same product to the public and record fairly large profits until the Japanese arrived on the scene and offered what the public really wanted. This will eventually happen to the TPG industry too, but nobody can predict when or under what circumstances it will occur. Maybe some entrepreneur out there will read some of these threads and recognize an unfulfilled need for a grading company with highly skilled consistent graders who will get rid of the bodybag excuse for not providing the service the customer paid for. I suspect there is a huge market out there for less than perfect coins as long as they are properly classified and discounted in price. I know a lot of collectors won't touch them, but there is no reason to think that everyone else in the world thinks the same way.
Would that be the same vast majority that buys coins sight unseen? (see red above) So what's it worth? What is a PCGS graded 1908 No Motto Double Eagle worth? I'm wondering why the prices are so varied for this when it's apparently so simple (according to the above). I'll take a look a two places... Ebay and the PCGS guide (one would think this is the best place to look for what something is worth, since we are talking PCGS graded coins). PCGS site says it's worth: $1,000 1908 No Motto pricing source (4th one down) There are some Ebay dealers who apparently don't know what it's worth: One selling it for $1,168 Another selling it for $1,296.75 Then there are some buyers who apparently don't know what it's worth either: One who underpaid and bought it for $835 Another who bought it for $775 Another really underpaid, for $767 So even though there is an established guide of worth, all three of these sold for $165-233 lower than they were worth (according to one guide). Where does the guide get their "worth" figures? According to: http://www.pcgs.com/faq.chtml#faqid86 Q: Can PCGS determine the value of my coins? A: As a third-party authentication and grading company, PCGS does not buy or sell coins and does not value or appraise items sent for authentication and grading. PCGS does offer the PCGS Price Guide, a compiled price list of the average dealer asking prices for all significant, properly graded US rare coins. If you are interested in buying, selling, or simply finding the specific value of your coins you may want to contact one or more PCGS Authorized Dealers. So it's merely a compiled price list of the average dealer asking prices... ASKING PRICES? So many people refer to it as the pricing guide when they talk pricing (not here, as we're all smarter than that, I don't think members here are stupid enough to pay the prices listed on the PCGS site). I could write a book just on the PCGS paragraph alone, but I won't. Moving on... So what does this have to do with slabbing cleaned coins? If there's no definitive guide or standard to grade coins in the first place, no definitive pricing structure for non-problem coins and the prices are all over the place, then what difference does it make it LABLE a problem coin as such (when the grading fee have been paid) so that it is CLEAR it is not worth as much. You could even discount it 20% (off of what is anyone's guess). Sorry I don't buy any of what you're saying, and I'm not sure the vast majority does either. But I haven't asked them and could not make such a statement.
A lot of collectors say that, but I'm willing to bet those (and everyone here) have at least one in their collection. Do you? I remember people commenting how surprised they were to see all the problem coins (graded) there were from the Jules Reiver collection.
samjimmy, I own some cleaned and damaged coins. Everybody probably does. I don't mind owning a cleaned coin as long as I paid a cleaned coin price for it and wanted it anyway. Many coins are out of my price range unless they are circulated or "problem" coins. I see absolutely no downside from slabbing any and every coin if the owner desires it and is willing to pay for it. It might even encourage some collectors to submit more problem coins to be graded if they thought they could get them slabbed as "MS62-Cleaned" instead of returned in a body bag to be passed on to another unsuspecting collector. Then just let the market sort out what the prices should be. The collectors of the present are doing collectors of the future a favor by examining, classifying, recording, and preserving as much information as possible about as many coins as possible without treating any coin as "not worth the effort." Anyway, that's the way I think about the subject.
If this were true, then why did ANACS abandon the idea ? They had a lock on the market after all. I am well aware that there is a certain number of collectors who disagree with the practices of the TPG's when it comes to slabbing problem coins. But if the demand was there in sufficient quantity, somebody would cater to it.
Yes, it is. I'd say that these completed auctions answer your question fairly well. 3 examples of the same coin, same grade, same grading company - and all within 7% - 8% of each other. Seems pretty close to an established price to me. As for what various dealers "ask" for their coins - it seems the market agrees with you, the dealers don't know what the coins are worth. Otherwise they would have sold already since they are Buy It Now auctions. But because they are priced well above the established price for the grade - they have not sold. OK, but is this guide even worth the time it tales to read it ? No, we both know it isn't. There is a guide that is fairly accurate - you posted a good example of it, completed auctions. Your right, there is no single definitive grading guide. The TPG's however each uses their own guide and the market is well aware of it. And the market establishes prices quite handily for coins graded by each of the top TPG's. I have already explained the differences it makes, you however disagree. OK, I'm fine with that. You are welcome to believe what you wish. And you don't really need to ask anybody to find out if the majority agrees or not - all you have to do is observe. The market speaks every time a coin is sold. Anyone who wishes to do so can look for themselves and make their own determination.
Assumption: The purpose of slabbing is to enable reliable, sight-unseen transactions. The problem with problems is that the terms cover too broad grounds. Some cleanings are less objectionable than others and the price should reflect that. But how can you quantify that? Plus there are so many other kinds of problems that could not be adequately described on a slab label. So it seems reasonable to me to have some grading companies refuse to slab problem coins and others that do so. The market will adjust prices accordingly (but pretty roughly). There is room for both.
I don't know why they did it. Maybe someone should ask them. But ANACS doesn't appear to be a well-managed operation to me [the introduction of the new slab design didn't seem to go well] so maybe it's just another business blunder. Maybe it is a perception that their profits will increase, at least in the short run, if they just body-bag a lot of coins like their competitors. Maybe collectors are just so conditioned to accept this sort of treatment that the TPGs will be able to continue the practice for a very long time. But I'll never believe this is the way the business should be conducted. That's okay, my opinion isn't important in the grand scheme of things.
I thought ANACS was still slabbing problem coins? Just not putting them in the new holders. Using the old style holder with a BLUE label.
I've seen some coins that were cleaned so harshly that I can understand why it would be tough to grade them. Either they were scratched badly or dipped/whizzed and basically the details were melted away. Now I understand this, to some degree (though I still feel any coin should be able to be graded). If a almost completely worn near slug can be graded, so can a cleaned coin. I mean, is there anyone here who honestly thinks that either of the coins I posted below couldn't be graded? http://www.cointalk.org/showpost.php?p=159553&postcount=17 There were some periods when cleaning was commonplace. You'd be hard pressed to find some of the early ones uncleaned. It's not all that surprising that during the last 200 years, someone wiped it. Another example are ancients (which cleaning is more or less accepted and expected). Oddly, these are graded just fine, no mention of being cleaned even. Amazing how they can do that.
well, i am interested as to what happens with my submission to anacs, i specifically sent them some raw coins that may have some minor problems. one coin with a minor rim ding, one with light cleaning (possibly done 60+ years ago) etc. I thought that they slabbed problems coins, but put net grading on them? I know that they send it back in an old style holder.
Afraid not - the old way - Net Grade the new way - No Net Grade What they are doing now is putting what the grade "would" be if there were no problems with the coin.
I am ok with that GDJMSP, it still allows some one to make an informed decision on the coin. and as an off topic question, what does GDJMSP stand for?
