It is seemingly becoming the season for "dead horse" :dead-horse: threads--you know, those ideas that are repeated endlessly, and end up in volatile debate, leading to no resolution. Just wanted to voice one collector's opinion that they're really getting tired, and it would be nice to see them decrease in frequency. 1) TPGs are terrible, and "I can grade better than a TPG." Okay, well, if that is the case, then why are you taking time writing that here? Why aren't you buying up all the under graded coins that TPGs blow, resubmitting them, and selling them? Or, why don't you buy every single raw coin, and make money with your "superior grading skills" and do the same--become another Jack Lee, or some other millionaire dealer, and conquer the world. 2) Toning debates. NT versus AT--people who say that once again, their abilities are superior to TPGs when it comes to identification of the same. Don't you think that NGC and PCGS has seen every trick in terms of artificial toning? Do you really think that you have more expertise in recognizing AT then they do, and you are an instant authority on "market acceptability." 3) "Grade this coin threads," where the coin is always under graded if you own it, and overgrazed if you don't own it. Now really, let's not personalize that so much. It should be a learning experience, and not an ego debate on whether or not someone can be an "instant grader" by just looking at a set of often inferior photographs. 4) "I am going to buy cull Morgans, below melt," and make more money than the Hunt brothers did years ago. This has been tried yeas ago, and folks are still considering it. If so, perhaps you should just buy bullion silver and take your chances--or better still, go to Vegas and bet the "pass/no pass line" Also, isn't this contrary to the aim of the hobby, as young collectors can only afford worm Morgans, Barbers, and other coins that the speculators would happily melt for bucks? I know that I have often added my two cents on threads like this, and it has resulted in inflammatory debate. Might it be to our mutual advantage to minimize these types of threads that are guaranteed to produce the "same ole" results?
Good call. Some of these disagreements just go on and on.The CT redirect threads were driving me crazy, Apple… no PC… Had to unsubscribe.
I guess I will have to be the contrarian in this thread. You see, I believe that the path to enlightenment is through good honest debate between those with opposing positions. The important thing to remember is that while engaging in a debate, your chances of getting your opponent to stand up and admit that he/she was wrong, and agree with everything you are saying is almost impossible. The primary reason is that there usually is no definitive right and wrong, just opinion based on perspective. Getting someone to change their opinion is extremely difficult. So one might ask, what is the point? The point is that the purpose of the debate is to convince those who have not already formed and opinion on the subject or are not firmly entrenched at one extreme or the other. It is akin to politics where the debates are designed to sway the votes of the moderates/independents, not the partisan voters. For example, Doug and I tend to disagree about many topics within numismatics. He is a "black and white" thinker and remembers the days when numismatics was very "black and white." The application of market grading in today's numismatics creates all different shades of grey across many aspects of grading. I understand it, accept it, and endorse it. Doug understands it, disagrees with it, and does not endorse it (most of it anyway). There is no way I can change Doug's perspective or opinion. But by engaging him in debate, I can provide all of the new members and lurkers of this forum with the information that they need to form their own opinion on whatever the subject may be. Lastly, we need to ask ourselves: why do we constantly engage in the same silly debates/arguments over and over and over again? The answer is simple. An internet forum has a life of it's own. At any given time it's membership and readership is unique. That is to say that every time we engage in a dead horse debate, we will always have new readers. Therefore, while the dead horse debates may be stale to long time members, they are invaluable to the new members who may be seeing the debate for the very first time.
Couldn't agree with Lehigh more. I've seen a number of threads on "beaten to death" topics actually turn into great threads. Off the top of my head here's two: http://www.cointalk.com/t111316/ http://www.cointalk.com/t110657/ At the center of both threads are topics that had been discussed countless times before, yet they both turned into great discussions. I'm sure anyone, even an experienced collector could learn something from going over those two threads, let alone a newer collector.
Without debate this/any site would be dull & dross. That said, I'm relatively new here and NONE of these 'hot button topics' have produced any flame-wars I've seen in 3 months. Maybe I'm not looking hard/sensitive enough? WAT I mean, I can see buying cull Morgans instead of scrap silver... but who's melting coins??! That's a canard, methinks. And if you mean Silver is really not a "money-making investment" I fully agree: it's purpose is as alternative monetary asset (aka alt cash reserve) and USD/paper hedge. Therefore: collect it for fun! And if you don't buy it, someone else will. Right? Don't agree bullionism is a "deadhorse debate" either ... but I don't hear/see any Silverfish ranting on CT. What am I missing?
I agree with that Juan, but can you agree that "PC vs. Apple" should be debated on computer / tech forums; not CT?
Both of those threads are fantastic examples of great numismatic debates and perfect illustrations of Doug's "black & white" nature. If you are reading this thread and have not yet read those two threads, do yourself a favor and click the links. That is an all star cast in the prime focal area thread: TomB, Mark Feld, Doug, Mike & Mike, (Raider & Breakdown), Jason (physicsfan), with NPCoin and 900fine pinch hitting at the end. WOW!
I thought all times of year were the "season" for these types of threads. Morgandude11, maybe you just haven't been around long enough to realize this. I mean, I am by no means a "veteran" of the likes of Doug on this site, but the topics you mention come around, and go around...and will continue to for the foreseeable future. Interestingly, and maybe ironically, another type of thread that comes along quite often, and that generally doesn't really add much to the "meat" of the boards is a thread dedicated to complaining about the topics of other people's threads.
Ah #1, I certainly agree that they're terrible lol... don't have the capital to make money on such a theory, but I can at least vent my frustration by debating/arguing with people who disagree. There's just not much to talk about with people who completely agree with you. As for #2, to me I find most toning unattractive whether it's natural or artificial (artificial toning sometimes even looks better lol...). So can't find myself caring much. Sometimes toning I find OK or even an improvement, but usually I'd prefer a coin not to be toned at all if I can help it so see no point arguing whether toning is natural or not. Eh, I've started a few of #3 not because I think my coin is under/over/correctly graded but because I'm honestly curious as to what other people's opinions are as to its grade, and more importantly, how they arrived at those opinions. I also find it interesting how many people seem to disagree with the opinions of some TPGs and agree with others... especially when so many disagree with TPGs held in high regard and agree with those held in lower regard lol... irony can be so ironic sometimes. Can't say I've seen many of #4 but maybe such threads only show up in the bullion investing forum, which I rarely bother to read. To be honest I think basically all threads in that forum are basically exactly the same anyway. Buy low sell high and other such obvious and/or useless advice.
There is nobody, and I mean nobody, who has beat that poor horse more than me But I have to agree with Paul on this. Whaaaaaa? Wait a minute, did I just say that out loud Lord, forgive me. I'll make up for it, I promise
Wow, agreement. Take that one to the bank. No, I do understand the necessity of keeping lines of discussion and education alive for ALL collectors, as has been said previously. They need to hear all sides (politely) of issues that concern the hobby, and Paul is right that education is essential---after all, that is why we say "Books before coins--" read before you buy, and understand.
I agree, but would modify it slightly. Education is key, but not indoctrination. What I mean about that is a person should educate themselves about every facet of coinage, how a coin is made, how it tones, how it gets worn and damaged, etc. This is just common sense every collector who wishes to collect coins NEEDS to know if they are going to be serious. The "no indoctrination" part is in response to your original post Morgandude. You post a circular argument about toning, saying a member here cannot judge "market acceptable toning" better than TPG graders. When the TPG graders are by definition the ones determining "market acceptability" its kind of hard to argue that, right? Everyone should educate themselves and come up with their own views. Lemmings who assume TPG's are infallible will always be taken advantage of. Its fine to use a TPG for enhanced liquidity of your coins, for authentication, (their best use in my view), and even for grading and "market acceptablity" if you wish. However, the more advanced collectors in my eyes understand what the TPG is evaluating and is personally agreeing with what the TPG has said about the coin. Way too few collectors in my view perform this last step, to their detriment in my opinion.
I would agree for the most part. Collectors should formulate their own opinions, within the constraints (financial and practical) of the hobby. No debate there. As regards TPGs, they are here to stay, so a certain acceptance of that fact is pretty implicit, however. This is, of course my opinion, and not gospel.
Maybe in your area of the hobby, but in ancients we are still putting up a good fight, as are EAC collectors I hear. Just kidding, I don't hate slabs as much as most people think I do. Unfortunately, the way the fakes are going, I believe they will be more important in the future.
Seeing some of the discussions from the more knowledgable people can be enlightening. But I think I understand what you are saying - sometimes there is no discussing with individuals that are irrational. Then again - sometimes it is fun just to watch them froth at the mouth in their posts.
