Gem Indian Head Cents? Or was I taken...?

Hi all - I am a newbie at coin collecting. I was given some SMS sets by my granddad when I was a kid, and after letting them sit in a box for ages, I showed them to my 6 yr old son, who is now hooked on coins. And I'll admit I'm having a lot of fun with it! I also had in my collection a 1908-S with a red lustrous finish and a 1909-VDB (not S, sadly) graded VF. I realize now that especially the 1908-S is quite a coin - I had no idea! I decided on one project, I want to collect a set of Indian Head cents that have a beautiful red luster. I know this will be an expensive proposition and its going to take a long time to complete (my wife doesn't understand...).

So I started my undertaking on eBay. I bought an 1891 and an 1897, and then recently bought a 1904 and 1906-1908 from the same seller - those four are really amazing looking, especially the 1904. I got what I think was a good deal. Now... I'm worried if I got too good a deal. Maybe the coins have been cleaned (or even worse - fake?? Can't be...).

I've attached some pictures of the 1904 here, and shared a link to the lot here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s47o6t7898f3tez/8-vajTttMQ

I'd really appreciate any advice - are these good coins, or did I make a rookie mistake and get taken?

Thanks all!

Richard (dad) and Brian (son)

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Well IHs are probably what i have the most experence with though I would not call myself and\ expert but those look very very nice to me. I would be very happy to have any of those in my albums. Or more simply they appear very much to be the genuine article. Of course I can and will always recommend if you are not sure don't buy and if you do get them checked by another dealer you trust just to be on the safe side.

 

Or buy them slabbed by PCGS or NGC.
(Sorry, but I'm VERY pro-slab.)

 

Very true! at least if it is a pcgs, ngc or anacs slab (ok icg too) you can be sure it's the real thing.
I will add that these are also fairly common dates and much more availble in AU condition and less commonly faked unlike the key date fakes that outnumber the real coins.

 

Thanks all! Do you think these coins are worth having graded? Or should that be reserved for older IHCs? I've never had a coin graded before. Only have one slabbed coin actually (or more accurately my son does), I bought him a proof 2006 ASE, his birth year

 

Fwiw on those pics, I've got two pics of each coin obverse and reverse, just from different lighting angles. Trying to highlight the marks and nicks on each.

 

I would have those graded in a heartbeat, and would do it through a dealer (to save on shipping because im cheap like that) Not to mention the expertese of a good dealer that will tell you if he thinks the coin is worthy of slabbing real or fake (at least in his informed opinion anyway) The only reason I don't have more of my coins slabbed is the cost. As much as I love IHs I do not yet have an AU example but my collection is mostly xf's so I could afford most of the key and semi-key dates but when i do get and AU/BU it will be slabbed if I don't buy it that way in the 1st place.

 

The 1904 might be original, however the 1906 has definitely been cleaned, the 1907 has been polished and the 1908 has been harshly polished. Those last three coins are nearly worthless. Do yourself and your son a favor and, for the time being at least, buy only PCGS or NGC certified IHCs.

 

Hi Tom - thanks for your insight. I noticed small areas of corrosion on the 1906. But what gives it away on the 07/08 pieces? I noticed that the metal looked pocked in the open areas - some sort of corrosive was used?

I had to read the forum one more time before going to bed, to make sure I went to bed depressed...

 

Tom what do you think of this 1902?

 

I hadn't noticed the 1902 when I first looked at the images. That coin has also been boinked. The 1902 is an AU with somewhat glossy surfaces that are completely consistent with a previously cleaned and/or polished coin. It also has some bad scratches under the shield on the reverse. The 1904 may be okay. The 1906 shows hairlines in the fields especially in front of the portrait along with some residue, gunk, corrosion or other "stuff" in the lower lying areas of the devices on the obverse. This coin is also AU. The reverse is showing some telltale color that it has been cleaned and/or polished with a sulfur agent. The 1907 shows hairlines, is a lower end AU and has a complete lack of natural surfaces. This coin was worked on pretty hard. The 1908 has truly been abused worse than the others. It is far too glossy, has circulated fairly well and has no natural color at all.

Please take the comments as they are meant; directed at the coins and not at you.

 

I am with Tom on this. If you just look at the small pictures then they do not look to bad, but blow them up and you can see some issues. Those are album coins to me - put them in an album and hope for the best. I would recommend buying some graded coins. That will help a great deal - give you a feel for what true color and luster should look like. Still if you want a true high grade set stick with graded coins. There are several good dealers that can be recommended.

 

You just got excellent free analysis and advice from Tom. He knows what he's saying. Don't waste money slabbing these.

Unless you don't care about the value of these coins, or getting ripped off, buy no more raw ones.

Finally, consider your endeavor. The later years are affordable and available in high grade. Check out the prices of the 1870's. Are you ready to spend many thousands of dollars on IHC's in comparable grade and condition? Wouldn't it be more affordable, and just as much fun with a whole lot less risk, to build a VF set?
Lance.

 

it is sad that coins with nice detail that may have graded au or better were victims of yet another coin cleaner in hopes of taking a few dollars more from a honest buyer with very good intentions.

 

The coins look genuine, but they also look enhanced somewhat. Some of them have a reverse proof like look. This is the result of polishing. If you don't want to make any more mistakes and don't want to spend the money on certified coins, learn how to grade for yourself. Try collecting a cheap modern set first. Maybe Lincoln Memorial cents in MS red condition. Pay close attention to the pre 1970 set. These years have a higher relief and can be easily and inexpensively found. This will give you the basics of what a red cent should look like and coins that have been tampered with will easily stand out. Just always look for the mint cartwheel, if it is not there, it is either not MS or it has been cleaned or polished.

BTW, as a fourth generation collector, I love that you and your son are collecting together.

 

Hi Kirkuleez - I'm really disappointed in myself after what I've learned here. It sounded too good to be true and it was. I'm going to request that the seller on ebay allow me to return the coins. Funny thing is, he just received perhaps his first two over negative feedback regarding other "stunning coins" from his collection. Hopefully people catch on. In any rate, we'll see what he says

 

Doing it with my boy totally makes this. I took him to the ANA show in Baltimore a few weeks ago! and we visited the Philadelphia mint as well. The hobby helps him learning number, adding and subtracting large numbers etc.

 

It really upsets me that your experience is so common. It would really be nice if all sellers were honest, but unfortunately that's just not the reality of the game. There are a few really good dealers on this forum though. You can try Charmy "The Penny Lady" or Matt "Lost Duchman" and I hear that Tom (from earlier in the thread) is a very trustworthy dealer.

The Indian Head set in red BU is a challenging set to say the least, but with the help of a good dealer, it sure would be a nice collection. Take a little time to learn about proper storage to keep your set as beautiful as you can. Red cents are difficult to keep red, it is the reason that they trade for such a premium. Good luck.

 

Buying copper from images has it's risk. You just never know what it's really going to look like in hand.

 

Hi all - well this was a lesson I learned the hard way. I knew this project was going to be long an expensive, the type of collecting we'd do over a period of years. But I was anxious to get started and didn't do my homework. Caveat Emptor! Tom, I really appreciate your advise. Hopefully Brian and I develop an eye for improperly cleaned coins and don't make the same mistake again.

Kirkuleez - 4 generations, wow that's great! Yes collecting with my son has been great. Its the first "adult" activity we've enjoyed together, and its taught him to recognize U.S. coins, read coin dates properly, we visited the Philly mint together etc. He still doesn't fully grasp the concept of money and what different things cost - e.g. "Daddy can we buy that shiny gold coin?" "Brian, that coin costs more than our house!". Also its hard to grasp what it means that a coin is 20 or 50 or 100 years old when you're 6. I use birth years as milestones - I got him a proof set from 2006 (year he was born), gave him an Eisenhower from my birth year, and he's trying to collect a set of coins from 1943, the year my Dad was born. He's just missing the quarter at this point. Its a great learning experience for him.