Which catalog

I'm weighing my options on which U.S. paper money catalog to order -- the official red book or the Krause. I'm primarily interested in the best and most complete illustrations. Does anyone have a preference and why?

 

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I currently have the Krause one. The info. and illustration are pretty good. I have looked through the Red Book and though its good it doesn't provide as much info. Surprisingly some prices in the Krause one are pretty close while the Red Book is way off. On a side note if you're into small sized currency neither one will suffice. You will need to get a book dedicated to small sized US currency. Oh and I believe Krause has released a new one recently.

 

When you say prices are off in the Red Book that begs the question compared to what?

 

Compared to the actual selling price.

 

I am assuming you mean auction results since there are multiple selling prices from many different auctions not counting the huge number of dealer transactions that take place unreported. One thing I have always wondered is should a premium be added to a graded note to recognize some portion of the cost of grading. Maybe it is just me but I have noticed large variations in auction prices for what appear to be substantially identical notes in even short time periods.

 

I don't have either of these books...but, if illustrations are your primary interest I think you should consider this one. I have a copy and the illustrations are excellent. I know it's a little more expensive and it's a larger hardback...but I highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/United-States...2569&sr=8-3&keywords=us+paper+money+friedberg

As always, the prices are not the best (with any catalog like this)...but the info and images are great.

 

What he means is that any annually (or less frequently) published book is not going to have fully accurate prices. Yes, they are a ballpark. In all honestly, once the book actually hits the shelves...the prices are probably already out of date.

 

I understand the point. And without a long and wandering post I probably can't explain totally how I view this. But let's just sum it up with if something is fluctuates enough that you need daily measurements to determine it then you know you daily measurements are subject to the same types of fluctuation error a long term measurement would be. In other words if something moves around so much that you think you need it measured in smaller and smaller intervals then the current measurement predictive value for the next measurement is about as flawed as the longer term measurement because of the inherent fluctuation. And imho you would probably get a more accurate measurement by viewing a long term chart of the daily measurements allowing for any event that might have permanently changed the measurement or if seasonality effects the measurement.

 

I sometimes thing paper money pricing follows the principle of [SIZE=-1]Schrodinger's Cat. A dealer [SIZE=-1]sees you looking at a note, and the price changes.

Dave
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Paper money collecting, in my opinion, has become specialized. Large size, Small size, Nationals (large & small), Obsoletes, Colonial, Fractional, Military payment, Errors, Fancy....just to name a few. All of these also have sub-groups to deal with. For an overall, complete illustrated catalog/guide I would recommend Q. David Bowers' Whitman Encyclopedia of U.S. Paper Money. Here is the write-up about the book from Amazon;

From Award-Winning Author Q. David Bowers. Collect, grade, and attribute your paper money. Organize your collection, with Friedberg and Whitman numbering systems. Make wise purchases in today's market. 900 Pages; more than 1,600 full-color images. Printing quantities for nearly all issues - a guide to rarity. Dealer pricing for all federal notes, 1861 ot date, $1 to $10,000. History and values for Contintental Currency, War of 1812 notes, Fractional Currency, encased postage stamps, star notes, mules, error notes, and more. Auction data, market commentary, more than thousands of prices and values, multiple grades, a bibliography, extensive endnotes. Hardcover

I mailed my copy to Mr.Bowers to have him autograph it.

Link to sale of the book, http://www.amazon.com/Whitman-Encyc...ords=whitman+encyclopedia+of+u.s.+paper+money

 

There are several available on the Market and all of them worthy of a place on the shelf. My personal favorite is Gene Hessler's Comprehensive Catalog of US Paper Money. It never hurts to have several reference books.. the combined knowledge is a great resource.

 

I have a large number of guide books.

The Standard Catalog of US Paper Money (the one on the left) 31st edition, and it has way too many errors. I have found dozens of valuation errors to date.

The Official Red Book on the right, has only 1 or 2 errors, and the valuations are much closer to market. It doesn't cover MPCs or Stamp Envelopes, but it's still quite good.

 

This is all great info -- many thanks everyone! I think I'll have to reevaluate my options, which have now expanded beyond just two. I'm going to see if our library carries any of those listed here, so I can do some hands-on comparison.

 

Here are a few of the problems with Standard Catalog:

The Gem 65 value is less than the Unc 63 value. This doesn't happen in the marketplace unless valuations are compiled without regard for when the notes were sold. I have found dozens of these issues. Here are two:

Fr. 2400 $10 1928 Gold Certificate: VF $2000; XF $2500; CH CU (63) $35,000; Gem CU (65) $7,000.
Fr. 1700 $10 1933 Silver Certificate: VC $3500; XF $9000; CH CU (63) $14,000; Gem CU (65) $11,500.

Then we have a problem where the star note value is less than the regular note:

Fr. 1860-L $10 San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank Note CH CU (63) $6900
Fr. 1860L* $10 San Francisco Federal Reserve Baank Note Star CH CU (63) $5000

Another note that is completely omitted is the Fr. 2305 1934-A $20 Hawaii Federal Reserve Note is completely missing from the book.

There are some interesting entries with no explanation, where the valuation for one or more grades is listed at $1.00. I thought this might mean there is no data available, but those entries are actually marked with a hyphen.

 

I have a previous edition of the Standard Catalog, and while I agree with funkee stating that there are some errors in the book, my edition does not have nearly as many as I have seen in the newer edition. I personally like the Standard Catalog more than the Red Book, but i will look into the Whitman Encyclopedia as Steve suggested.

 

Guy's...

As far as pricing goes for notes... these are simply subjective to current market conditions like most other things. There are many errors in most published references like the ones we are discussing. If it is pricing that you are after, then current auction pricing is what I have always based value on. If it is a correct listing of varieties known do your reseach.

A reference book is only as good as it's editors..things get left out, modified or mis-printed..that the nature of the beast in many respects. That once bothered me until I compiled the proper assorment of references into my Library

Good luck in your endeavors... be kind!

 

My original post spoke of the question by the OP, which was his interest in the best and most complete illustrations. Choosing a catalog or guide for pricing is a different subject. The errors in pricing and valuations are inherently common in all catalogs and guides.

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Hey Rickie, good to see you around again! I've used Krause as a general source, but enjoy using the book Rickie posted about a while ago. I think the general market demand will play a major role in valuation of any note. I've seen two of the same note sell for a wide range in money.

 

Steve, you're correct -- illustrations were key to my reference search. But clearly pricing is what most collectors are looking for. It's been interesting to see how this thread has evolved.

 

Not to hi-jack the thread of publications or pricing concerns of valuations based on books..but as general market supply and demand is in play where do some of you guys think that have been in the hobby for many years think prices of notes will be in 5 years from now?

Ive always heard currency is i suppose like coin collecting a cylical market. So would it be safe to say hypothetically speaking if and thats i know a big if unemployment stays in pretty much the same level and the economy is flat 5 years from now that overall price's for notes will stay relatively the same? Is basically the only way for notes to increase in price from now is for the collector base to increase therefore increasing demand...but would if the economy stays the same. Would market manipulation be in play if mid-level harder to find notes did go up in price without a better economy?