"Red" cents...what is red?

I agree with Doug to a point. I DO believe some cents survived red. Coins like the 31s above, and many other wheats, can survive red. The issue is where you store them. If you store them in rolls of other cents, any atmospheric toning will only affect some of the coins. I have taken apart rolls, where they were selling for little money, (wheats from the 30's), and most of the coins were still full red. The end ones were brown. There is no reason in the world for anyone to dip these coins, so I have to assume this was natural.

To me, red can survive if the coin was stored with other cents in a group. Once a collector separates them, then I don't think copper can survive without toning unless you had extraordinary technology like today to stop it.

Just my opinion. Btw Doug, yes I agree that copper can be successfully dipped.

 

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I don't know the RB-BN %, but i read somewhere, as i think doug stated earlier too, 95-100% of red must be present to earn RD. Most coins will tone eventually. There are a variety of factors that can be used to store coins to slow the toning process. Some large cents are still RD by the TPG's classifications today.

 

Yeah, but they have to be the poster coins for Doug's argument. I think there is a Wreath cent graded 68 Red, (going from memory of a story in CW about 20 years ago). Yes, today it is full red........

 

It can be confusing, even to the TPGs.
This was recently graded 66RB. Top image mine, second image PCGS. The third coin has recently been graded 65RD.

66RB



65RD

 

Also remember that some tpg's (ngc for example) will only guarantee the value of a color designation for x amount of years. So even if the coin tones inside the slab (which it can, and will), doesn't mean that just because the label said RD means that it will be backed as a red.

 

I should have mentioned when I posted the cents above that all have great eye appeal. In hand the 1910 is the most natural, the '16, '20 and '29 were probably dipped and the '31 natural but the least eye-appealing of the 5. I could probably find five more with RB designations that vary as much if not more than the Red.
Coppermania could probably post many BR from his incredible collection that display a similar range of color.

 

Wow, talk about splitting hairs. Would this be easier or harder than deciding between an MS67 and an MS68? Is there any "objective" way to measure this?

 

I do not think there is an objective way to measure it. At least in my opinion. I have seen RB coins that look like they should be RD - in my opinion.

 

If a coin is all but guaranteed to turn from red to red-brown and eventually brown -- even in a PCGS or NGC holder -- it's hard to understand the tremendous price premiums the full reds get. Or is it an "enjoy it while it lasts" mindset? Like investing in fine wine? Should the owner be prepared to crack it out and dip once the red luster begins to go away? If not, it seems an investment in a pricey full red cent is embarking on an expensive, losing battle with time.

The cents shown in the above photos are obviously not full red, even though the holders indicate such. I would think these are examples where you ignore the TPG color designations and pay only the discounted red-brown price.

 

The Heritage Houston Signature auction has an Indian Cent (Lot 7360 for those interested) that is graded MS64 RED by NGC. Copies of the Heritage photos below. It has already been bid to the price level of a full red, but it has to be a red-brown correct? I confirmed the grade of this coin at the NGC website, but there are no accompanying images to give a clue as to whether the toning took place after it went into the holder. I assume that's what happened. I understand that one should buy the coin and not the holder. My question is about the color designation.

 

I would say that is one turning brown in the holder. The light. copper looking color is sometimes the color when its going from red to brown.

I would wager, unless something drastic was done in the storage of this coin, it will be brown in 5 years. Its still a pretty coin though.

I never "got" why such the premium for "full red". Yes, usually it accompanies a nice original coin, but always seemed to me to be the lazy way to delineate between original lustrous coins and non-original coins. There are lots of really nice, lustrous brown copper coins out there. In fact, my favorite modern copper coin is a very dark Victorian penny. It was stored in a manila envelope, so its dark, but I find it very beautiful.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. The coin likely did NOT look like this when it was slabbed.

As for the concern voiced by many about RD coins -- that's precisely why I tend to collect RB copper -- it is less risky, and, to me, every bit as attractive.

 

One of my favs is very dark too. I really like brown and colored copper.

 

Follow-up: The IHC shown in post 32 above sold for $329 (with BP) at Heritage. The current NGC price guide lists the 1906 IHC at $210 in condition MS64RD and $110 at MS64RB. No doubt it has spectacular toning, but that's a big premium to pay over the red-brown price. And as others have suggested, one wonders how long it will look the way it does in the pictures.