"Liberty Dollars" illegal

I have several of these $10 silver "Liberty" dollars dated 2005.

Here's the press release by the US Mint. Thoughts?

http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?action=press_release&ID=710

 

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as long as you don't try to use them to buy anything you won't have any trouble

 

That's exactly what the Mint is saying:

So, buy them :thumb:, sell them as the exonumia they are :thumb:, collect, hoard or save them :thumb:, just don't spend them!!

 

They're nice as silver rounds.

 

You can "spend" them, too, so long as by "spend" you mean trading them to another for whatever you both agree.

What you can't do is proffer them in lieu of currency.

 

The barter argument will not hold because the United States Code expressly states:

Because they chose to term their coins as "dollars" instead of "barter nuggets" or something along those lines, and by not establishing themselves as a barter exchange, as well as using likenesses of legal tender and having the intent of utilizing their tokens as money, they probably will not be able to get off.

For decades, places like Chuck E. Cheese's have "sold" tokens to be used to make vending machine purchases (read the whole USC section at Cornell Law School) intended to be used in their own machines. It is virtually the same as the "Liberty Dollar" case, except the fact that Chuck E. Cheese's and others never intended their tokens to be used outside their establishment! The "Liberty Dollar" was intended to be uttered as current money in further violation of USC Title 18 § 486.

On a personal note, however, I do not see anything wrong with "alternative" forms of tendering debts nor conducting commerce. The problem with the "Liberty Dollar", however, has been their intent and practice, which has in reality been quite misleading to the ignorant general public. Remember, we're talking about the "general public" here, not numismaniacs like ourselves. These are people that buy banana-nosed "trade dollars" from China for $50 and think they've struck gold!

 

It looks like they are trying to come down on using this as cash. I suspect the basis is that people were confused that this was actually real $$$ backed by the US government.

I wonder if they plan to come down on the Ithaca dollars also.

 

Check out the web site: www.libertydollar.org. The founder, claims his currency is backed by precious metals and is inflation proof. The deal is you have to become an "associate" and buy the initial pack of currency, for every "associate" that you sign up you will recieve some form of compensation (in Liberty dollars of course). The website also shows printed bills in addition to coinage. A lot of economic hocus pocus is provided for justification.

 

I find the idea interesting and not a bad one but the problem with liberty dollars is the implementation- in essence they split the seignorage profit with anyone who buys their currency and passes it at face value. The result is that I think some people get a little pushy trying to spend them (there was a story a while back about someone trying to buy beer at some sports event, insisting it was 'real money'...)

 

NPCoin, thanks for posting the laws. I knew there was something to that effect that was law, but wanted to see it. It looks to me like the U.S. Government (and therefore we, as the people) bans this kind of activity, so Liberty Dollars look to be illegal. If we want it to be different, we have to lobby and get laws passed. To me, without having read much about it before, it seems that part of the issue would be that silver and gold are traded on the open market nowadays instead of having a set price like when the US was on the gold/silver standard. This seems to be an issue if you're saying you have a silver coin that's worth $20 (and is marked as such) and its value is tied to the silver in it.

 

One also has to be careful about introducing independent issuers of currency. It weakens the national currency. Remember that the dollar didn't much become strong (even when it was backed by precious metals) until after the Civil War, when the private issuance of currency was effectively forbidden.

 

This isn't exactly a new concept. In the 1970's a group promoted the concept that US currency was not legal tender since it was not backed by gold. This gained some acceptance and was corrupted into the notion that income taxes weren't "legal" and you could avoid paying them by making the claim based on the constitutionality of the non-gold standard. I served on a federal jury that heard at least three or four of these cases, all with the same argument.

All suffered the same fate, tax evasion. I also learned, don't mess with the federal government, especially the IRS!

 

Interesting thing about the age limitation stated above. Wasn't there a case not to long ago about some 10 year old (or close) wiz kid who got nailed by the Feds b/c he turned his talents to making remarkably passable counterfit bills using his home computer.

According to the law you quoted above, that means that you could argue that counterfitting was legal until the age of 18. I'm sure there are other laws that cover this base, but not the one quoted.

 

But the intent seems to shift when one looks up the "snipped part", which
has

" to procure anything of value, or the use or enjoyment of any property or
service from any automatic merchandise vending machine,
postage-stamp machine, turnstile, fare box, coinbox telephone,
parking meter or other lawful receptacle, depository, or
contrivance designed to receive or to be operated by lawful coins"

which seems to indicate that one might expect children to insert
odd things into vending machines and not know that it is wrong,
and specifically mentions slugs and the like. It also says

" nothing in this section shall create
immunity from criminal prosecution under the laws of any State,
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, territory, possession, or the District
of Columbia."

** Other sections dealing with counterfeiting do not mention a
minimum age such as ( using computer generated currency).

Section 474. Plates, stones, or analog, digital, or electronic images
for co5nterfeiting obligations or securities

Section 471. Obligations or securities of United States
"Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges,
counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the
United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than 20 years, or both."


Section 485. Coins or bars
"Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in
resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than
5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or
assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude
of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or
in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings
into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or
bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with
intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or
attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph
-
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
fifteen years, or both"

This section below seems to be specific for liberty coins

]Section 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes,
or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other
metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of
foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this
title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


It looks like the 18 and under only applies to using slugs or
the like on vending machines of different sorts rather than the
liberty dollars that are mentioned. JMHO. sorry so long

 

(My underlining) Does this mean I can start churning out Lincoln cents in my basement?

 

Absolutely! :high5:




























Unless, of course, you prefer to keep all your money for coin purchases, and avoid looking at striped sunshine .:whistle:

 

I'll say again:

If you have Item X that I'd like to own, and I have Y "Liberty Dollars" that you'd like to own, and we agree to trade, it's perfectly legal and nobody's business.

What's not legal is me attempting to use my "Liberty Dollars" in lieu of US currency as legal tender.

 

Or Jefferson Nickel? The law says HIGHER than 5 cents...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 5 cents less than 1 dollar?

What Sec. 485 may appear to give away, Sec. 386 takes back.

 

Sorry I left this out as my previous message was rather long.

"Sec. 490. Minor coins

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin in the
resemblance or similitude of any of the one-cent and 5-cent coins minted
at the mints of the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or brings into the
United States, or possesses any such false, forged, or counterfeited
coin, with intent to defraud any person, shall be fined under this title
or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

and

"

Sec. 487. Making or possessing counterfeit dies for coins

Whoever, without lawful authority, makes any die, hub, or mold, or
any part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in
likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon, of
any die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the
genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at
the mints of the United States; or
Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any such die, hub, or
mold, or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid
of the counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States--
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen
years, or both."

so No, you can't make any counterfeit coins of any denomination.