http://www.precisioncoingrading.com/ WOW! Here's a service that re-examines the grades assigned by all the major grading services and assigns a additional point grade between .0 and .9. Using this service will essentially double your original grading/encapsulating fees. It would be cheaper just to break out your slabbed coin and resubmit. Although I don't see it on their website this statement is shown on their e-bay auction... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130021615664 WARNING: WE REPORT "OVERGRADED" COINS WOW AGAIN! Report to whom? If it's an ICG coin and we all understand how they may be a little lax with their grades. I suppose that he will assume their grading standards and point grade accordingly to ICG standards. What a can of worms here. OK then what about under graded coins? I am assuming that his service makes an assumption that the coin is already graded super accurately since his service will only assessing a grade from .0 to .9 above the current assigned MS grade (or PR, AU, etc.) I as a novice cannot understand any need for this service or the idea behind it by re-examining the majority of all the TPG companies as we all know they have their own differing standards of grading. The service and fees are IMHO, questionable.
Sadly, it might be true. The same people who are willing to pay thousands for a MS66 over a MS65 are the people he's targetting. Last I checked, these people aren't in short supply. We all know a MS65.1 isn't worth as much as a MS65.3
I knew it would only be a matter of time before decimal point grades appeared. Other than that, I think I'll pass on any further comment since I'm clearly not in the target market for this service.
Mr. Fox has ben trying to sell this "service" - and I cannot stress enough how much disdain I have for the word service used in this context - for some time. The idea is completely ludicrous. Luckily most people are smarter than that - at least so far.
In this auction, you are getting 5 coins precision graded for only $49. My normal fee for personally "precision grading" a coin is $15, plus shipping costs both ways. Interesting, that the seller isn't using thr BUY-IT-NOW feature, The auction sold fore more... Also I cannot figure out the reason for the $9.95 shipping fee??? He's most likely mailing the winner a coupon! Interesting, that there were 3 different bidders on the auction. Nextly, WARNING: WE REPORT "OVERGRADED" COINS If you own PCGS, NGC and ANACS graded coins, you have a better chance of owning accurately graded coins than coins certified by other grading services. In fact, the odds are very much in your favor that the coins you own are within a "half-grade" of the official numerical grade printed on the label. Whereas, if you have bought non-PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins, you may be in for a surprise if you submit them to us for precision grading. It is possible that I will tell you (and print on my PCGA grading certificate, which includes my personal signature) that a coin you bought as MS63 to MS67 is, in my professional opinion, actually an AU (About Unc), or worse. So if you own "bargain priced" certified coins, and you'd like to believe that they're exactly what it says on the holder, I'm probably not the guy to send them to. Back in the 1970's I published a quarterly report called "Numismatics And The Law," (written by myself and a law professor) in which I named rare coin dealers who were blatantly overgrading coins and ripping people off. A few of them sued me, but most backed off, and I never lost a lawsuit. At age 59, I'm really not in the mood for lawsuits. However, by the same token, I'm still not afraid to express my honest opinion of what a coin really is so collectors and investors can make educated decisions. To be honest, you're better off finding out the truth sooner rather than later. The more time you have to correct your mistakes, the better off you will be 10 or 20 years down the road. I suppose that he's saying that he REPORTS overgraded coins to YOU the submitter not the grading company. But part of this statement doesn't make sense since you already have the graded encapsulated coins I am not sure what he means by express my honest opinion of what a coin really is so collectors and investors can make educated decisions. So he tells you the coin is OVERGRADED! How many collectors and investors are going to send the coin back to the original grading company because of this Fourth Party Grading service's opinion? They simply look at coins, hopefully slowly and carefully, like I do. I may spend a few minutes carefully examining a single coin, or I may spend a half hour. I remind you, that he is examining the coin THROUGH THE HOLDER not actually viewing the coin in hand so how accurate is this grading? Some holders may be scratched or stained over the years. Oh well, again it's buyer beware!
I presume that the idea is to enable you to sell your overgraded coins before anyone else finds out they are overgraded, and resubmit your undergraded coins with the reasonable expectation that an upgrade will more than offset the additional fee. The concept probably isn't that farfetched for someone trying to maximize the dollar value of their collection, assuming that the second opinion is performed accurately and honestly. A lot of people already seem to do this without assistance by looking to buy coins that can be cracked out and resubmitted. So the service is just an attempt to take advantage of some gigantic holes in the way coins are priced and marketed in the hobby. I have no way of knowing if the new service can actually deliver on the promise.
sounds like this scam evolved from all the sgs controversy. i wonder if larry owns this service too, it would be a real win-win for him.
What Is Precision Coin Grading Analysis? By Les Fox Hi. Les Fox here. I am the creator of Precision Coin Grading Analysis, the first ever grading service to attempt to clarify the true meaning of PCGS, NGC and ANACS graded coins, as well as other certified coins. PCGA is a new concept, which remains to be market tested, and which is currently being looked at very skeptically as all new ideas should be. However, let me first tell you who I am so you know that this is a legitimate attempt to improve coin grading and not a get rich quick scheme. I am PCGS Dealer #2032 and ANA Life Member #1331 (since 1974). I am also the author of 5 editions of "Silver Dollar Fortune-Telling" (1977-1987) and "The U.S. Rare Coin Handbook" (2000), the only book ever to involve the participation of PCGS, NGC, the ANA and 12 major coin dealers including Stack's, David Hall, Heritage and many other well known numismatic firms. I've been a coin collector since 1957 (age 10) and a professional dealer since 1969. I also published "Numismatics And The Law" in the early 1980's, a quarterly journal which attempted to name rip-off coin dealers (several sued me, but all lost) and advise coin collectors and investors on important legal matters. Okay, so now you know I'm not some anonymous person trying to make a name for himself by re-grading PCGS coins. In fact, all I'm trying to do is to verify what experienced collectors and dealers already know: that all MS63, MS64, MS65 and MS66 coins are not absolutely identical, and that some 65's are "just made it" coins while others are "just missed 66" coins. Right now there is no way to tell the difference. That's what I'm hoping to accomplish with PCGA grading certificates (every coin personally examined by me, every certificate hand-signed by me). Will these certificates add value to a pre-certified coins? I hope so, but it's my job to prove it. Clearly, if thousands of people agree with my grading (MS65.2, MS65.6, MS65.9, etc) PCGA enhanced grade coins may begin to bring premium prices at auction. If not, I will be discredited. My challenge is to convince the numismatic market that I am right, but not that PCGS or NGC is wrong. However, in response to the suggestion here on Coin Talk that I will not grade a PCGS MS65 less than 65, that is not the case. I will grade coins as I believe they should be graded. In most cases, PCGS grading is accurate within half a grade, and a very small percentage of all PCGS coins are "way off." NGC is not quite as accurate, and some NGC coins are more than half a grade off (or else PCGS coins are undergraded). Other grading services like ICG, SEGS, etc. are generally less accurate than PCGS and NGC, but who knows what my PCGA certificates will reveal? As to "who" I will report my results to, the answer is: to everyone in the coin industry. Believe me, eventually you will see what I discover in the pages of Coin World and The Numismatist, on eBay, on Google, on my website, and possibly many other websites. Keep an eye on Precision Coin Grading Analysis. The time has come for people to learn the truth about coin grading, the good, the bad and the ugly. My certificates will represent only my personal professional opinion, and I do not remove PCGS or NGC coins from their holders. But my professional opinion, and my reputation is the coin field, is very well known and respected. I've been dealing in Gem quality U.S. coins for 37 years. In 1988, I auctioned the multi-million dollar "Amazing Gold Rarities" collection of super Gem and rare U.S. Gold coins with Stack's (try to find a catalog - you'll be amazed yourself) at the Plaza Hotel in New York, and I hired David Akers to write the catalog. I've written several articles for the Coin Dealer Newsletter, and I taught the late Jim Blanchard the rare coin business in 1974. If you don't know who I am, that's because I've been doing other things for the past 15 years. I build custom homes, I'm an art dealer and I am now manufacturing a patented calorie counter for the Curves Fitness chain. Precision Coin Grading Analysis may prove to be the new grading revolution. That's my plan, and it may take a few years. But even if it fails, my heart is in the right place. And believe me, I can grade coins with the best of them. Thanks for reading this. Comments, suggestions and criticism welcome. Have a great day! Les
Les, I, for one, wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Grading anything above AU has always been a problem for me and I won't try to pretend that I'm anything but a casual collector. Given the huge price difference between MS64 and MS65 coins in many cases, it's just too risky for a casual collector to participate under the current circumstances. Personally, I don't think grading will ever become objective unless and until someone figures out how to program a computer to do it consistently enough to gain acceptance in the numismatic community, but any attempt to improve the present system is worth a shot.
Personally, I think it's a pretty neat idea. As a new collector with little experience, I can use the help of an experienced dealer to help me grade my coins. This forum has helped me immensely, but without having someone look at my coins in hand, it's tough to have them graded by photos alone. And I also believe that a dealer should be able to charge for the service, as it requires a special skill. The market will ultimately judge whether or not Mr. Fox's grading is accurate or not (and it seems he is fully aware of that). I wish him the best of luck!
Les - since you have PM and email turned off I have no choice but to post this publicly. Your last post in this thread, and your post in US Coins, have been removed because they were both a form of buy/sell/trade posting. When you have made a minimum of 10 non-commercial postings at CoinTalk, you will be eligible to use the Open Forum for a one-per-week posting of that type. At no time may any member post that type of thread in any forum except the Open or Auction forums. This action has nothing to do with the merits of your new endeavor. Your initial post remains in this thread as an explanatory response to the critical postings by other parties, but further commercial messages would violate the rules. Both sides of the issue have been stated, so there is no purpose keeping this thread active.
Just to add one point, Les Fox you may not be aware of this. You can make your offer to Silver Striker by private message or email. Generally, I only encourage people to use the private messaging system for making deals. This is not to encourage anyone to start making unsolicited offers, but this seems to be an unusual situation. If Silver Striker wants to try out your service, I encourage you both to get together on it. I encourage Silver Striker to post an honest review of the service after using it too, if he decides to take up the offer. If he doesn't take up the offer, fine too. Either way, any business transacting is best done out of the public view.
Ridicious story. You still have issues of under and overgrading and they aren't just off by one or two points. To add to the trouble, grading is all by eye appeal. What scientific approach are you going to use? The number of scratches on the surface, percentage of wear against the origianl design, etc?
Les emailed me saying the service isn't a scam and I wanted to clarify my earlier post if it made it seem like that is what I was saying. I don't think it's a scam, rather just another person's *opinion* of a grade, based on an unstandard grading system (at best). I don't feel that one person or firm's *opinion* is any more right or wrong than another, nor that one person or firm's grading standard is any more right or wrong than another. The problem (as I see it) is that there isn't a standard grading system that everyone uses. It's as if there is such a thing as "a true meaning of graded coins." Far as I know, there isn't. While I would agree, "that all MS63, MS64, MS65 and MS66 coins are not absolutely identical, and that some 65's are 'just made it' coins while others are 'just missed 66" coins' " I'm not sure I agree that another person's opinon is any more right or wrong on the subject, regardless of how much experience they have. It is... just another opinion. Now, some might agree with that opinion, some may not. What it will reveal is that you have an opinion about the grade, and are willing to charge for the service of giving that opinion. I don't feel this is a scam, but I also don't feel that your opinion is worth more than anyone else's with the experience to do the job. If you held the holy bible on grading, and the standards you used were the standards used by everyone, then your educated opinion would be worth at least as much as an established grading service's opinion (which, in my opinion, isn't worth much). In other words, "I will grade coins as I believe they should be graded." ... so what? I think you already posted it above ("In most cases, PCGS grading is accurate within half a grade..." etc.) You will think that some companies are close to what you feel the grade is and some are way off. Some coins will be a few 0.3 over and some will be 0.3 under. I think the majority of people already know this and feel the same way. But it's just another opinion, and "the truth about coin grading" is that there's no standard grading system that everyone must use, thus there's no right or wrong, and everyone or firm's opinion is just that... an opinion. There's really not enough room, nor a need to go over it again, to go through all the problems with TPG services (including yours).
Folks, it's not about being right or wrong in this case. I *THINK* we can all agree that we need to make the hobby a better place. With the scams out there (self slabbers, coins on TV, etc..), Les' heart is in the right place. So, I cannot fault him there. As for making the 70 grades into 700, that I do not see working out well. Though, I do wish him the best in his endeavors and am currious to see a MS-64.9 vs a MS-65.1 Let's all continue to make the hobby the best #$% hobby out there!
But that's precisely what it's about. If people can't agree on what a MS67 or MS68 is, then just adding more precise grading (more "accurate grading" if you will) to an already non-precise system is... well pointless. If there was such a thing as an absolute, undeniable, universal MS67 (no doubts, no discussion, no variances), then I could see (even if I don't agree) that some may want to know if it's MS67.1 or MS67.6. One could grade to the hundredth for all I care (and charge $100 per coin to do so), but the point is... not everyone will grade to the hundredth the same, and not everyone who uses the same grading system and criteria will agree that a particular coin is MS67.32 That's where the apprehension comes in. That's the "problem" if you want to call it that. *Personally* I don't have a problem with someone paying even more (on top of grading fees) to have something regraded "more accurately" -but I think it's a waste of money, and just another opinion (which many will disagree with).
