Returning problem coins

In my part of the country ( in the real world ) he bought at a show, seen it in his hands with his own eyes, left the show with it, came back many, many, many, days later crying.

All the dealers/sellers that I have always bought from always told me that once you take it out of the flip to play with it it's yours. The smart thing to do if you need to get a better look at a coin is to ask the dealer/ seller to take it out, I've done this a few times so I could get a better look at the rim. If they wont take it out of a flip I figuer they are trying to hide something and I don't buy.

From what I've read so far I think this guy is trying to play a game of some sort with the stuff he buys. Like he himself said, he's done it before, buys something, walks away, then comes back crying and whining. Once it cost him 35 %, this time it didn't work, probably because he took it out of the flip. I say good for the dealer/seller, he didn't get away with doing it again.
Bill Collector

 

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I strongly agree.

A good dealer will do much better than this. I think 80% buy back is absolute minimum, and 90% is more reasonable.

 

Guys,

The way he's telling us his "story" we're not even sure the person is a dealer, he may have been a collector that was selling off his collection and doesn't want it back but was trying to be nice by offering him something. Of course after this I'm sure he will be a dealer that rips off everyone.

He bought it eyes open at a show, went home with it, took it out of the flip, "played" with it, never contacted the seller saying that he was not happy for a long, long, time.

If this was a mail order sale things may be different, but this was a eyes on sale, even a mail order sale has a limited return policy, most that I ever got was a three day inspection, If I didn't like what I seen I would call and let the seller know I was not happy and it was being returned, what is it you don't understand about this ?.

Some of you are starting to sound like a bunch of kindergarten kids. I was told to join this forum because there were serious collectors here, hope I'm not wrong about that.
Bill Collector​

 

Ask the seller if he will give you full price in a trade, if not you're stuck with it and your only choice is to chalk it up. :thumb:

 

The guy is a show dealer; at the same time I had looked at a number of his other type coins that had major problems and I bought an Anacs type coin and the raw one. BTW I have taken well into five figures in losses in this hobby. Most dealers I have confidence in know how to grade or have good return privileges if you are doing tens of thousands in business at their shows a year.

 

This guy is probably a show vendor or seller, not a dealer. Not really much different than setting up at a local flea market. While some "Dealers" do set up at coin shows, not everybody that sells coins at one is a dealer. Define dealer. To me a "Dealer" is someone whose established in the business, has a physical (read: not internet- or suitcase- based) presence, all the proper memberships in the appropriate organizations, and a federal tax ID number. I'm pretty sure I can plunk down the cash, set up a table, and sell off my collection. Doesn't make me a dealer. Doesn't really make me shady either.

Five figure losses? Must be one heck of a trust fund you live off of . That much money into an education and you still don't know how to grade, or spot problem coins. Still relying on a "dealer" to make your "investment" decisions for you. Maybe it's time to find another hobby. Or another investment venture .

 

Wish I had said that, you took the words right of my mouth.

I guess for some reason this guy just cant learn. He would have been a lot better off if he took some of the money he "lost" and bought some books on how to grade. But if he cant learn I guess there's no hope for him.

For all of his loses there must be a awful lot of crooked coin people out there, I've never run in to many bad ones but then I've learned a long time ago how to grade, not to believe everything told to me, or what's on a TPG slab, I've seen way to many over graded TPG slabs.

I'm the one putting my hand in my pocket, putting my money on the table, so I'll be the judge of what I'm buying, if I'm wrong that's my problem because of my stupidity, and of course I try to never let people take advantage of my pocket money.
Bill Collector

 

Sorry I am late to the thread. Interesting read.

Personally, I totally agree that no one can ever buy a coin and wish to return it since it was not the grade they thought, or the grade the TPG thought. You buy a coin ungraded there is no warranty a TPG will agree with the grade.

However, I am on the fence about something like whizzing. To me this is very close to "hidden damage" that a buyer may not know about, but an educated seller should. I am not saying I am sure either way, but at first blush my opinion is the seller should give a refund for such an item, and not a 50% return. I am sure a good dealer would do so, or at least I would expect them to do so myself.

 

And the original poster was not willing to pay "a premium". I am not sure of the reason to beat grey sheet unless you plan to resell. It that case you should be relying on your own skillset - not a dealer. On the seller side at this point.

 

Agreed! :cheers:

In this case, we're accepting the OP's description of the transaction as truth. In that scenario, I would expect a Dealer to have the same skill to recognize whizzed coins as a TPG...and not have sold the coin in the first place (as a problem-free coin). In that scenario, one of three (3) things happened...

A. The Dealer made a mistake. (If the Dealer knows it, should refund)
B. The TPG made a mistake. (Dealer should explain why...and consider refund to a good Customer)
C. The Dealer is trying to cheat the Buyer. (Dealer should turn himself into the Police...after refund)

 

This tells me much about your collecting habits and the types of coins that are in your collection. You are what professionals call a "price shopper". This isn't bad necessarily, but it does mean that you will have few if any undergraded coins in your collection.

That said, I know a number of dealers who offer coins that are conservatively to very conservatively graded, and if you choose to buy from them they you will not be able to pull out your CDN and buy at the prices listed because when you buy from dealers who grade like those guys you will pay a strong premium for their material but you have the confidence of know you got something conservatively graded and the possibility that it was undergraded.

I know a couple dozen extremely talented dealers who make their entire (very comfortable) living from looking through other dealers' inventories to locate coins that are undergraded and then getting them into the proper holder.

I am sorry to say it but one the unfortunate parts of reviewing many collections over the years is that I have to explain to older collectors and/or their heirs that the quality of a coin within a grade (or its surface problems) can significantly affect value; and your "crapshoot" comment regarding raw coins leads me to believe that this might apply to your purchasing behaviour.

 

At first glance, I would tend to agree, but like GDJSMP says, there is no legal obligation on the part of the seller to refund the money. None of the "laws" cited apply in his case. If the OP was your average, everyday collector, I might tend to agree with the refund and be a little more sympathetic. From a business standpoint, you really should not rely on someone in the business to make money on a retail level to give good enough deals so you can make money, off him, at the retail level. So, I'm still siding with the seller in this instance. Keep in mind that not every one who sets up at a coin show to sell is an experienced and knowledgeable "dealer". I still believe the OP bought this coin raw with the intention of having it graded and reselling it for profit. It came back in a condition not conducive to generating that profit for the OP, in fact he's probably taking a loss. He apparently did not properly examine the coin (even though he had the opportunity to do so), instead taking the grade hand written on a flip as gospel. I have purchased numerous coins in flips where someone along the line wrote a grade on the flip, and subsequent buyers/sellers never changed the flip. So, he now wants the seller to refund his money based on fraud and or other illegal behavior, when in fact the OP simply gambled and lost. I believe the buyer, in this case (trying to play with the big boys) is solely responsible knowing what to look for when examining the coin in hand, and making his own determination as to the profit potential of said coin. This really isn't the seller's responsibility. I'd compare this situation more to sitting down to a poker game without understanding the rules, losing the hand, and then complain that you didn't know the rules and demand your money back. While it's nice to think a seller is responsible enough to tell us everything about the coins we buy, it's really unreasonable to expect that. How many posts have we read on here about educating the buyers to avoid being ripped off? I think the best advice for the OP, in this situation, is to indeed, consider it the cost of his education and find another seller to buy from.

 

I can't believe this thread has 75 posts and the dealer hasn't been named.
Because I attend MA. shows there is a good chance I may have had dealings with this dealer.
It would be nice to know who the heck we are talking about here.
Would it be that hard to just name the dealer Owle?

 

Personally I like it that he didn't name the dealer. I find too many dealers are bashed unfairly in public forums like this. I thought the OP showed class by not naming him.

 

If I were in Minnesota I may agree with that.
But I go to the shows in MA. where this dealer sets up.
People here have speculated that it may not be a dealer but a collector wanting to be rid of his collection. Others have said not a dealer but a vendor.
It would be nice to know who we are talking about here for several reasons.
Especially if I know said dealer. There are a few that do sell cleaned/whizzed material. If I knew who we are talking about it just might help put things in perspective.

 

I agree that it is not fair to name the seller of the coin. There is some disagreement on whether, or to what extent to give a refund, but that is after the fact. That other dealers could "see whizzing" is also after the fact. We have absolutely no reason to say that the seller is dishonest or with held any information. So whether than name a possibly/probably ( take your pick) person who is within his rights, who has not presented his side, is unfair.

Victor and any other, just do as you normally would at any show there and remember to ask specifically (1) is there any problem with the coin? (2) If it becomes a "detail" graded coin, can it be returned and what refund will be given, (3) Do you guarantee the grade as minimum, or is it as is? (4) get a business card and list the coin and price and conditions on the back or in your journal.

Jim

 

All of this stuff is nothing more than common sense, of course I realize that some people don't know what that is but it can be learned.

As to # 3:

"Do you guarantee the grade as minimum, or is it as is"

That's a hard thing to expect from anyone because grading is so subjective, even TPG's cant agree on a grade sometimes, if you like the item, and the price,
I don't see where there would be a problem, I'm sure that our "collector" liked what he seen and that's why he bought it, reading all of the stuff he has written he's bought thousands and thousands of dollars worth of "bad" coins, his words, not mine, and still hasn't learned anything from his bad experiences.
Bill Collector​

 

I'm going with not naming the seller as well. The only thing he's done wrong at this point, is not covering the OP's loss. There is no indication that he misrepresented the coin in question.