The toner that separates the men from the boys.

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So your were just trying to display the duality of your statement that there is no boundary between NT & AT?

 

Wouldn't you be pretty sure a coin was NT if it were in a mint cellophane unopened, and displayed toning? That would seem pretty conclusive.

 

I believe you are a great detective Paul, and that is what makes you a good toned coin collector. You have to take the clues given you, and decide based upon them AT vs NT, because many times intent comes into play. The following are scenarios under which a coin becomes "toned":

1. Sitting in a mint bag for 100 years
2. Sitting in someone's coin cabinet for 100 years
3. Sitting in someone's dansco for 35 years
4. Sitting in a damp, old holder for 5 years
5. XXXXXXX
6. XXXXX, placed in oven at XXXX for XXXX
7. Put in high heat with sulphur source for a short period
8. Chemical toning

It was written to be a continuum, all produce "color", yet high numers are clearly AT, low numbers most would say are NT, but there are those in the middle. Was it carelessness for #4 or intentional, #5 and 6 are clearly intentional, (I refuse to give details out to others), but I saw them done with my own eyes and the results. Where is the line drawn? You might say 1-3, and I might agree with you, but 4-6 WILL produce very similar results as 1-3 in terms of color. Surfaces and luster cannot be replicated, though, this is why I concentrate on those personally, and know if someone took a lustrous, nice coin and did 4-6 I might never know it.

Not trying to argue AT vs NT Paul since I know we have different views, but that is how I view the continuum. There simply is a grey area. I believe you have demonstrated great proficiency here showing us your prowess at spotting AT and explaining why its AT, its simply my opinion there are some in the middle that will forever be unprovable.

Just my opinion.

Chris

 

i have the 1885 version

 

Bingo......98% of the coins I sell are on consignment and I agree sometime the consignors want moon money for their coins and then they entertain offers which is what happened in this case. This coin sold for $2000+ off ebay and the buyer who is a toned Morgan guy was extememly happy with the coin and price. The coin is real clean and easily an MS65 despite what folks who claim they know how to grade on these forums might have stated and the color is off the chain.

 

Thanks for Chiming in, Shane. I know you take a lot of consignments as you advertise it on the CU forums. I was betting it was a consignment too.

 

Thats the funny thing.......I probably sell 10 coins a month that I own and 300 on consignment and folks will make all kinds of assumptions like I sell a lot of mint set coins so when I sell a double mint set I get messages on ebay asking if I swapped coins out for grading lol I haven't sent a coin off for grading in several years. I did drop off 5 morgans to NGC at least years winter FUN since they had a show special but 3 of the 5 morgans I bought raw at the show.

The coin that started this thread was and is exceptional and I really question anyone's coin sense if they think it's AT...they should move on to collecting and commenting on state spoons as providing mis-leading opinions on these forums is much more damaging then someone asking a crazy price for a coin.....how many new collectors are going to step up to pay $2500 for a common date Morgan? Personally I don't and I love toned Morgans and know what the heck I am looking at as far as the whole AT VS NT debate.....

 

Shane, I am one of your biggest fans here. I LOVE toned coins, particularly Morgan dollars, and a variety of half dollars. I've bought a bunch of your coins recently, and find that the ones I got were very reasonably priced, compared with market value for the same coin, slabbed, but not toned. OF course there was a premium to a degree for the toning, but it was far from "moon money." I think you provide an exceptional service for the toned coin collector by having a lot of inventory that isn't insanely priced, so we can have multiple dates of beautiful coins, with magnificent toning. I applaud you for that--I realize that the $2500 Morgan dollars that you do have there are for consignees who don't have any idea about collector reality and what the market will bear. At any rate, I applaud you for your wide selection of beautiful toners, and managing a business so professionally. There are others on Fleabay that don't provide availability of toners for reasonable sums--that is why I started this thread in the first place. Paying a $50-75 profit for a common date coin is not generally a hardship--paying 10X market for a toner is definitely not practical for most collectors.

 

If I'm reading you correctly, I have to say I don't understand why you've concluded that the consignor (if that's what you mean) of this coin doesn't have any idea about collector reality or what the market will bear. The original asking price was $2,500 and it sold for $2,000+. If the consignor in this case didn't get what he was hoping for, he certainly got close. And I'm sure he started high—maybe doing a bit of fishing—and expected lower.

Here is a link to a stunning toner on Heritage, a $350 coin that sold for $3740:
http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1154&lotNo=5710&lotIdNo=262004

You might know that Heritage's archives contain quite a few of these over-the-top toners. You're right, collecting them is not "practical for most collectors," but there's unquestionably a market for them. Seems to me (based on the numbers in this thread and not knowing any other circumstances of this sale) the consignor of your OP coin positioned it pretty well.

 

Wow, that 1885-O is an absolutely amazing monster. I completely understand why it sold for $3740.

 

Were you the buyer Lehigh? It is a beautiful coin.

 

That is a monster...quite nice and I am sure more colorful in hand then the haritage picture leads on

 

It is gorgeous. One of the prettiest toners ever! However, I still don't spend that much on an 1885o. Did I for 1n 1884s? Yes, as it is a rarity in higher condition. I guess we all have our limits.

 

We all have our opinions and priorities. I'd spend that kind of money for a key coin, and have done so. Common date coins, even if they are exceptionally beautiful are not generally great investments at premiums like that--not to say that someone won't pay the price and enjoy it--bravo to the person who does, but to me, it isn't financially smart if one has any intention of ever reselling a collection. I have started and sold 5 collections, so my priorities are different.

 

I'm certainly not judging your collecting priorities; it's not my business. Collect what you want—more power to you—and I've seen you post some nice coins on CT. I also respect your financial prudence. It just struck me as, well, presumptuous that, because someone asks $2,500 for a toner, you would consider him as not having "any idea about collector reality and what the market will bear."

I think there are at least several collectors here who would differ with your view that "exceptionally beautiful" coins, whether common-date toners or something else, are not "generally great investments." Since when has collecting "beauty" been practical or rational? I'm not saying tastes don't change or markets don't ebb and flow, but I'd say if anything is going to remain constant against these vagaries and over time, it's going to be something "exceptional."

 

All I have to say is Wow. That 1885-O is amazing.