Does CAC hurt prices of non stickered coins?

For the first part, I know exactly what you are saying yet it still happens. You cannot, except by knowledge, avoid getting ripped off by dealers. Some will always fleece you, but I do agree SOME of the arguing has gone away, especially concerning fakes, (which I have always said I believe is the biggest benefit of TPG).

For the second, of course some dealers specialize in high end. In fact, many of the most recognized experts specialize in the best coins of their specialty. If you have a truly superlative coin this is the dealer you wish to talk to, as he will be in the best position to pay the strongest. I remember a dealer out of Omaha with simply breathtaking early coppers. He always had a very strong selection of the very best coppers you can imagine. The only thing more breathtaking than his coins were his prices. That is why he had such a strong inventory, if you wanted to have one of his coins you would pay dearly. I still wish I had the $15,000 at the time when he had a gorgeous AMERI. cent at the Iowa show in the mid 90's. Man, that was a pretty coin.

 

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Eddie, the Box of 20 Concept is a collecting-investment strategy that involves buying high value conditionally rare coins in a diversified group to help ensure growth. The number 20 is derived from the fact that TPG boxes hold 20 coins. Since it was first introduced, the box of 20 concept has also been adopted by collectors as a way to ensure that they are buying quality over quantity. Either way, it usually entails buying high value coins. My example gave a minimum value of $1K per coin. You stated that anybody who will only buy slabbed coins should be committed. My question is, would you advise someone who is only buying $1K+ coins to buy raw coins?

You might find this hard to believe, but I have never purchased a coin sight seen. Every coin I have purchased as an adult has been on the internet with only photos as my guide to the appearance of the coin. Admittedly, I am pretty good at interpreting images and predicting what coins will look like in hand but if the TPG's didn't exist, I would probably have a different hobby. There is no way I would pay the amount of money I have for sight unseen raw coins. There are very few B&M coin shops in my area and the ones that do exist are basically bullion traders. Slabs & stickers provide the consumers in the market the confidence to purchase coins with the knowledge that they will get what they paid for. The stability they bring to hobby is severely underrated IMO.

 

That is not what I meant by specializing in cream of the crop. I was talking about dealers who search out PQ coins for the assigned grade and sell them at a premium. Nothing really to with the total value of the coins in question. However, there are some dealers that incorporate both, if only in their marketing. I guess that would make them a LEGEND in their own minds.

 

I wasn't talking absolute value either. I am talking the Snow's, Cline's, Sears', etc of the world. Dealer who, within a series, you wish to get the finest of a certain date and grade, you start with. If I wanted to get the prettiest 1907 IHC in 65 I would start with Snow and Penny Lady, since they have the highest likelihood of having that superlative coin I would desire. I only mentioned the AMERI. cent since I still dream about that one. If I could afford it today, (my salary has gone up, but so has the coin unfortunately), I probably would still buy it even though I collect ancients actively now.

 

You paid $190, price guide says $185, realistically, I've seen the same date and grade sell for around $140-$150, without the sticker.

 

Nope. I did my homework before buying this coin. Average 65s ,with no special eye appeal, and much less clean surfaces, not to speak of no toning were going for $150-175. Superior 65s, high in grade were asking around $200. This is a high in grade coin, so I was right on with price.

 

As I said, $140-$150, which is where yours starts.

 

Not saying you overpaid sir. Like I said I like the coin. But, if we say they start around $150 up to 175 generically, and a few examples may be $200, (which also may be CAC), then what would the "generic" average price of the issue be? $165?

So, for purposes of this thread your "overage" for the CAC was around $25. Again, we aren't sayign it wasn't worth it. You bring up, though, toning, eye appeal, and clean surfaces. Isn't that what CAC is trying to certify though? That is the rub, its hard to tell how much someone pays for CAC sticker versus the coin being nicer overall, right? But, for your coin, the article listed would report a $25 premium "just" because of the CAC sticker.

 

That would be for an average MS 65 1885, not a superior one. You could find an average one for $150-175. The "barely 65, because I had a good night last night" coins are maybe $125-150, and they are basically 64s that got lucky. For THE SUPERIOR coin, it would be $175-225. Since I could show numerous examples of non-CAC above average coins (which mine clearly is above average to high in grade), it is the going rate for a high eye appeal coin--and price guide is right on for the superior coin. So, it isn't the CAC that caused price inflation--it was a high in grade coin, that had superior surface preservation, eye appeal, and was probably bordering on being a 66.

 

Even if you may not see too many, it does not mean on par examples do not sell at or even much closer to CDN. That said, it seems a reasonable retail price and if it turns out that your happy with it - as a collector - this is all that should matter.

 

Yes, I agree. The "barely MS 65" coins that squeaked through the graders, with baggy cheeks and numerous dings go for about $110-150. Those are the ones that one would say "how is this coin a 65?" Average 65s are pricing around $150-175, and those are pretty clean. The superior coins, ones that we say "wow that is nice; it has a chance at 66," or "that has real eye appeal" are going in the $180-220 price range. Mine falls at the top IMHO, so it wasn't the CAC gave the coin the higher price--it was eye appeal, and being a very clean coin. I only looked at CAC coins, as this was an experiment when I was shopping for it, but I did compare them to other high-end 65s of that date, and all were going in the upper price range for the grade--so it wasn't the CAC governing the price, but the quality.

 

Well, Paul, first of all, anybody "buying high value conditionally rare coins in a diversified group to help ensure growth" isn't "investing-collecting," they're investing. As they're investing, I'll make an exception, they shouldn't be committed. People invest in stocks. If they were deceiving themselves into thinking they were collecting, then they should be committed. People don't collect stocks.

On your question, what do you think we did before "market grading" and the TPGs and CAC dropped in on us like out of the clear blue sky? The only coins around, then, were "raw." I wouldn't advise that, today, however, no way. We knew what we were doing, then. We knew how to condition-grade the coins, and, for two reasons, principally. One, so we wouldn't get "burned" when we bought or sold. The other, because we understood that was the reason we were in the hobby, in the first place, i.e., to admire the conditions of the coins. If we didn't know how to condition-grade the coins, how were we supposed to do that? Knowing the former is of course integral to doing the latter.

Yeah, well, you make a compelling case. It goes back to what I said, earlier, on that indicia of marketability thing. When the market is the Internet, you want to buy under a trusted label. Chalk one up for the evil empire, there.