The toner that separates the men from the boys.

lol

 

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This has nothing to do with originality but it just occurred to me that it looks as if the color is emanating from the word LIBERTY. Kind of interesting.

 

If you're not buying for the technical grade, then MS62 Toned should be sufficient instead of bumping it to MS65+. Bumping the technical grade due to toning is misleading.

 

But in the market grading system employed by the TPG's, eye appeal is an element of grading. It stands to reason that a coin with superior eye appeal should have a higher numerical grade than another coin with similar surfaces, luster, and strike.

 

Don't you believe that is a huge achiles heel Paul? That is one of my primary objections to TPG grading. I have been around this hobby long enough to see how tastes change.

Not picking on toning, but just say toning goes out of style, and we return to where we were where white coins were the preferred surface color. If that happened, (just saying if), then this coin is VASTLY overgraded. But, since there is no mechanism for TPG to recall such coins, now we have millions of more overgraded coins on the marketplace.

If you are going to encapsulate and grade, then at a bare minimum the grade should be the technical grade, and let the market adjust prices based on current trends, desires, and wants. To incorporate what is desired TODAY into a grade simply guarantees millions of overgraded coins in the future.

 

I think that eye appeal is obviously one element of grade. If you look at surface condition, strike, luster, eye appeal, and any distracting marks as an overall package, there are many factors that go into grading. It can be also stated that all Silver coins of the 1870s-1890s would have some kind of toning, unless sealed in a climate controlled environment, and not all of it would be attractive toning. A lot of the "white blazing" coins that many of us like at one time or another have almost certainly been dipped to achieve this look. Ugly toning (that battleship grey look) has been taken off, and what we are seeing is basically a conserved coin, not an original one. So, it is all relative. I have been known to like both kinds of coins--shiny ones as well as toned, so I would like to think that most collectors have an open mind to what the coin originally looked like, and what it was made to look like for marketability.

 

I wanted to see if anyone could come up with it. Whenever you see a Morgan that is toned on both sides, you need to look for what is called "toning correspondence". If the toning was caused by a single source, the most advanced toning on the obverse should correspond with the most advanced toning on the reverse. Here is and example of a bag toned Morgan with very good "toning correspondence".



Notice that the most advanced toning on the obverse extends from the "U" in UNUM to the left of Liberty's portrait which corresponds to the "R" in DOLLAR on the reverse to the first "S" in states. The coin in Shane's listing does not show good toning correspondence. The obverse shows quintessential bag toning but the only evidence of the correspondence on the reverse is on the denticles over UNITED STATES. The rest of the reverse shows pastel toning with the lightest toning in the center of the coin. This toning is indicative of album toning. My guess is that the obverse of this coin toned in a sealed mint bag with an essentially untoned reverse. Once the coin was removed from the bag it was placed in an album which then toned the reverse.




It is worth noting that toning correspondence needs to be evaluated on a coin to coin basis and not based on the orientation of the original design due to die rotations.

 

Excellent point, Paul. I honestly DID NOT catch that. This is an important learning detail, and thanks for putting that into perspective--the fact that the coin obviously had TWO toning sources, not just one, due to the symmetry aspect of toning>

 

I had wondered about the difference in toning between obv. and rev. but concluded that, 1) if the ATer had begun with a toned reverse, it's extremely unlikely he would have been able to produce such stunning, quintessential tone on the obverse and, 2) if he had begun with said stunning obverse, he'd have absolutely no incentive to "improve" this coin by toning the reverse. So I ruled that out as potential evidence of ATing.

Is the rev. clearly album toning or is there any way this could be bag toning?

 

Doug, those are your rules not the rules of the TPG's who set the standard for market grading. Personally, I believe the coin in question has MS64 surfaces but I have no problem with the assigned grade. The toning on this coin is so bold and impressive that it diminishes the visual impact of the surface marks. If you had a white coin with the exact same marks, I promise you they would be much more distracting. Coins are graded holistically and the coin in question does not present itself as an MS63 or MS64.

The eye appeal of a white coin is dependent upon the the other three elements of grading: surface preservation, luster, and strike. If two coins have the same surface preservation, luster, and strike then the white coin would essentially be a basis for eye appeal. The toned coins would then either increase or decrease the level of eye appeal based on the color, pattern, vibrancy, consistency, and effect on luster. What most people don't realize is that the majority of toned coins will actually have less eye appeal than their blast white counterparts. But I promise you, this coin is not one of the majority. This coin has monster toning, adds to the eye appeal of a blast white coin, and is graded and priced accordingly.

In the end Doug, you just can't look at this coin and tell me that is the same as a generic white MS63 or MS64.

 

Exactly. And if the day comes when toning is seen as tarnish, what are buyers supposed to do when there are thousands or tens of thousands of these floating around vastly overgraded?

 

So you are waiting for pretty to go out of style. I hope you have an abundance of patience and a long life line.

 

Actually, toned coins have been popular for over 75 years. Some folks have always loved them, and some have never loved them. Matter of taste. Just remember that the white coins (at least Silver ones) are NOT original, as dipping has been around for years and years.

 

Paul,

I just kind of laughed at you before. Now I'll ask you directly: Do you really think that you're the only one that understands the concept of "toning correspondence"?

It was immediately obvious to me as my first thought upon seeing the coin was that the front side said "bag" and the back side said "envelope or album", and I can think of at least a half dozen members I'm sure understand the concept. Shane certainly does. TomB certainly does. Feld certainly does. I certainly do. More to the point: Please remember there are others who are equally or more experienced than yourself on this topic, and there is no need to look down your nose at the rest.

Respectfully...Mike

p.s. you did a very good job explaining the concept, by the way.

 

That is like waiting for big bazooms to go out of style. Good luck on that one.

 

Of course I don't think I am the only one. I was using hyperbole to prove a point. FWIW, I haven't seen Feld or Shane post here in a long time and TomB just started posting again a few weeks ago. And instead of posting an explanation of what I was referring to, you remained silent. And after all these years, you should know that I tend to get a little snippy when people annoy me.

 

Now I know I have explained to you in the past why toning is not a fad, yet you continue to present the fall of the toned coin market as inevitable. Furthermore, I still think that a great many collectors prefer untoned coins and many unattractively toned coins still get dipped everyday. Even in the old days, coin dealers weren't hasty to dip a coin like the one in question because they had select clients that actually preferred rainbow toned coins and would pay retail prices for them. Not the huge premiums that we see today, but they were still profitable.

The only thing I see that can destroy the toned coin market is an advancement in "coin doctoring" that makes it easy to produce rainbow toned coins that are indiscernable for naturally toned coins. But this won't make the coins less eye appealing, it simply calls the originality of the toning into question. The result would most likely be that any toned coin in old plastic would become much more valuable, not less. The eye appeal and assigned grade will be unaffected so there is no need to worry that we will end up with millions of overgraded coins.

 

... and BINGO was his Name O'......
I remember buying 2 oz's of silver every paycheck back in 86' at ~7 per oz from the local coin shop. I'd buy some random stuff that my disposable income would allow every now and then, and since I was a regular buyer at the shop the dealer always gave me an honest shake (ie. 20% below redbook for non-key dates was the deal). I remember him showing me a beautiful rainbow toned peace dollar and asking me if I wanted to buy it.. was a high grade 22' I think... I figured what the heck.. sure, 20% below retail, right ? Nope, he wanted 125 for it back in 86' if I remember correctly.. the 20% below redbook did not apply. I said no thanks... he said, ok, "I'll put it back into it's envelope and place it back on the window seal"...I had no clue what that meant and wondered why he stored it like that...... wish I had ponied up back then.. dang it.