How to deal with a shill.

I placed bids on 14 lots of low serial number notes on eBay.

They were 2 groups of consecutive notes.

I placed my max, considering for the money, I would get all the consecutive notes.

Well I did not.

I got out bid on every other note, every 2 notes.

So one group was like this (not actual but an example).

0123
0124
0125
0126
0127
0128
0129
0130
0131
0132.

When I won my lots, it was like 0123, 0124, 0126, 0127, 0128, 0130, 0131

As you can see, this only leaves me with 2 consecutive notes.

Thinking maybe other people were bidding I checked the bid history.

I was only outbid by two bidders on every listing.

Not only that, but I actually bid higher on the notes that I was beginning to loose, and lost them. The bids I placed were 4 times higher than the other note.

So, each bidder made sure I did not get more than two consecutive notes.

I noticed a pattern developing. Keep in mind these were two bidders.

1. Each bidder outbid me 4 times higher than the other notes.
2. Each bidder outbid me on every 3rd note (in reality, who would do this?)
3. Each bidder bid against me on every listing.
4. These bidders were the only bidders on every listing I won.
5. These bidders placed over 300 bids with the seller, this month alone.
6. Each bidder waited until the very last few seconds to place bids against me. These were not "snipped" bids.

and last, but not least.

7. The two bidders had 92% and 100% bid activity with this seller.

This means that one bidder ONLY bought items from this buyer, and this buyer only.

Every 3rd note, same two bidders 92% and 100% loyalty to this seller, over 300 bids placed on the sellers items.

This pattern indicates a shill.

I won over 14 notes, none have more than 2 consecutive numbers. I was outbid on every 3rd note. The winning bidders bought serial numbers that were not consecutive, breaking my "chain".

I thought maybe it was some clueless buyer, but the high amount of bids each bidder placed with the seller, indicates a shill.

 

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that sucks.

 

Someone must be out to get you? Odd that these notes would not be sold as a group, in order. Why as singles? Why would you expect to win all of the single notes in seperate auctions? Bid higher next time and win them all.

 

I'm inclined to go with someone being out to get you as well.

From what you're describing, there are only two ways for the other buyers to profit:
1) they somehow get your id and sell the bills to you for more, or
2) they are satisfied with preventing you from accomplishing what you're trying to accomplish.

 

I am confused, it looks like you would have three sets of consecutive notes in your example.
Maybe you should give us the actual numbers so we can have all the info, it is possible that the numbers others bid more on had some reason for having more value.

In your example the notes 0123, and maybe 130 would have more interest to certain collectors.

Personally I don't think numbers 3, 4, 5, and 6 mean anything at all. Since all your items were the exact same type of item 3 and 4 makes sense. It sounds like this seller does a lot with low/special serial number bills so these buyers would be repeat customers (we don't know because you haven't shown us the seller/listings). Every time I have bid on an item I have done number 6.

I feel that 2 and 7 could be an issue but we don't really have enough info to say 100%

 

You should write a seething letter to E-Bay about their failures to prevent shill bidders and all of the other injustices that have befallen you on their site. And when I say seething, I mean don't hold anything back. Call them names, use profanity, challenge their manhood, essentially give them no other choice but to NARU you. Once that is done, all your E-Bay troubles will be a thing of the past, and the members of Cointalk can throw an online party in celebration of the event.

 

No one is "out to get me"

These "bidders" had bids placed on the auction before I did.

As far as bidding higher, I'm not going to overpay 4x just to get the notes.

Here is my concept of what the seller is doing.

1. Seller gets these in bundles, most likely a "strap stacker".

2. Seller lists them consecutively.

3. Seller uses his other accounts, to place high bids on every 3rd note.

4. If buyer wants to make a "chain" he must bid higher, who knows how high I would of went to bid them.

5. Since seller had these notes for face value, he can just spend the notes that did not sell.

Basically it's a profit scheme for the seller, he makes others bid 4 (or possibly higher) times higher in order to get the chain.

If I had to, I quite possibly could of gone 10x over my other winning bids just to get every 3rd note.


Example.(Not actual data).

00111 I won for $3.59.
00112 I won this note for $4.40
00113. "Bidder" ran me up to $10, and I lost the auction.
00114. I won again.
00115, I won again.
00016 "Bidder" ran me up to $10, and I lost again.
00017 I won again.
00018 I won again.
00019 "Bidder" ran me up to $10, and I lost again.

So by the "bidder" placing a ridiculously high bid on every 3rd note, a buyer would have to outbid the $10 bid.

All in all, the buyer might have to spend $20 just to get 3 serial numbers that match.

It's a win win for the seller. Because like I said, if the notes don't sell, they are still spendable.

If the buyer wants more than one consecutive note, he would have to spend some serious money, a huge profit for the seller.

If I wanted 9 consecutives, I could of had to pay $50 or more.

 

I gather that you are sniping?

In any case, if the bill doesn't sell (because a shill buyer won), and the seller just spends it, then the dealer comes out behind. I doubt it was a shill. Much more likely that it was someone who was looking for something different than you (fewest number of unique digits, etc.)

 

There is no future for an idealist. The pay sucks,
the hours are long and it's just a golden chain.
And in the case of deception, which, presumbly
is what this is about, we need that. We need
deception and self delusion to grade our coins.

"...five year plans and new deals wrapped in
golden chain...."
CCR

 

Detecto, many here at CT have tried, feverishly, to explain this to you and it seems as though you still don't understand how this happens.

I will try one last time, and if you don't get it this time, it's hopeless.

There's an item on eBay someone wants. So rather than check the auction regularly, they decide from day one what their maximum bid will be and place that on the auction.

Example: They see a rare widget and decide they will pay as much as $100 for it. They enter their max bid for $100 on the auction. You come along and decide to bid on the rare widget yourself. So you place a bid of $10. Because the other bidder maxed their bid out at $100, you will be outbid. Until you make a bid that exceeds the other bidders max bid of $100, you will always be outbid. Because the other bidders max bid is not revealed, you will never know what that max bid is.

It's tantamount to a silent auction, where anyone interested in placing a bid, does so by submitting a written amount they are willing to pay for the item up for bids. The auctioneer opens the bids and finds the highest bid and that's the person who wins the item.

With regards to shill bidding, you will have an extremely difficult time proving to eBay that a seller used a shill to up the bidding on their auction. In fact, it's next to impossible.

 

Either spend more, or spend it on something cheaper than this hobby.

 

You have to bid more. Period. There isn't a shill, just a smarter ebay buyer.

 

This is the same advice I'm going to give in every single eBay related thread you start, STOP using ebaY before it gives you a Heart Attack.

 

Thats silly on your part to try to win 7 auctions in a row to complete your chain. I would of waited and looked for 7 notes in one auction.

 

Fact: Like it or not, there's always someone out there with bigger pockets. Pointless to whinge about shill bidding when you expect to win at rock bottom prices.

 

If you're looking for consecutive notes, contact one of the banknote sellers (there's a few of them if you google) and they will find what you're looking for. They'll probably sell them to you for a small percentage over what they paid for them because they don't have to worry about listing them and paying commissions on them to an auction site/house.

 

That's a good start.

 

There are really only two ways to deal with a shill.
The first is to outbid him. The second, and best, is to just not bid.

 

Detecto,

Not terribly long ago, I found a couple of sequential notes on Teletrade that I wanted very much. I wanted them, quite specifically, because they were sequential. Having either of them alone would have been worthless to me.

So, I had to decide...

Was I willing to go strong enough to be SURE I won them both? Simply bidding "reasonable" money on them would have left me in danger of winning only one...which would have been wasted money.

In other words...I had to commit to my hand. Either it was good enough to push all my chips into the middle, or it wasn't.

I wound up spending about 40% more than either note was 'worth' on both notes...but I won them both, and was as sure of it as I could be.

If you want to win auctions, you bid more than the other guy.

It's that simple.

It's not "friendly", it's not "easy", it's not "equal"...but it is most decidedly fair. The one who will spend the most wins.

So...seriously...quit complaining, quit belly aching, quit whining, quit calling people "hoarders" and "shills"...and do us all a favor:

Either go big.
Or go home.

 

Just one more comment:

It seems to me you believe you are entitled to get whatever you bid on and if you don't then there is a conspiracy against you.

Seriously, the sellers really don't care who is bidding on their items. They just want to sell their items to the highest bidder. I'm not saying that shills don't exist, but more times than not, the item sells to someone who really wants it and puts in the appropriate bid to win it.