Why is the center of a 1877 Indian penny weak?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Kevinfred, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Kevinfred

    Kevinfred Junior Member

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  3. papermoney54

    papermoney54 Coin Collector

  4. dsmith23

    dsmith23 Gotta get 'em all

    are you talking about the weak "N" on the reverse of the cent?
     
  5. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    That's just how they are. A different reverse hub was used for Business Strike IHCs in 1877 and the Ns (in ONE and CENT) were in lower relief than in other years (and different hubs). The Proof 1877 IHC has strong Ns and that is one way to differentiate between a Business Strike and Proof 1877 IHC.
     
  6. mackwork

    mackwork Caretaker of old coins & currency

    Strongly struck Ns are also an indication of counterfeit 1877s.
     
  7. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Because that's how the reverse die was hubbed , I'd imagine . Just saw Bruce already answered the question .
     
  8. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    By way of illustration, here is the reverse die (from an 1871, not an 1877, but the reverse is the same, I believe):

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Kevinfred

    Kevinfred Junior Member

    Ok... Thank you all... It's been really fun lately with some aspects of the hobby, and hugely frustrating in other areas. One thing I have to learn is that it IS a hobby... Again thank you!!
     
  10. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    I'm not an real strong on indian head cents but if I remember correctly the weak N hub was used in the late 60's and early 70's. Then it disappeared for a couple years and made a final reappearance on the 1877. So it was just a peculiarity of that particular master hub.
     
  11. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    Conder, that is my understanding, too. I will find out for certain in a little over three weeks - I am taking Rick Snow's course (Flying Eagle & Indian Head Cents) and I am sure this topic will be covered. I will report back on what I learn from Rick.
     
  12. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    If I recall correctly the diamonds on the ribbon on the obverse are normally weak to very weak.
     
  13. RedRaider

    RedRaider Well-Known Member

    Here is a gist of the 1877 and other dates around 1877 with the weak "N" reverse. The reverse is not weak in the center area, it is just the way the hub was made.

    If you look at CN IHC's minted between 1863 and 1864, they will exhibit the same "weakness" that is mistaken for the reverse die of the "shallow N". These same reverse dies were used up until 1870 where there is a mix of "Bold N", "Shallow N" and a combination of the "Bold N" and "Shallow N". The combination of both is a result of a reworked hub and is classified as a doubled die.

    The picture below represents the "Shallow N" reverse and it is found on dates 1863-1869, some 1870's, very few (rare!) 1871's, a few 1872's and exclusively on the circulation strike of 1877. Notice in the picture that the serifs in the letters "E" in ONE and CENT have a shape that looks like a sideways "T". The arrows point to what Im referring to.
    shallow N.jpg

    Below is an example of the reworked hub that produced a combination of the Bold N and Shallow N. Note the serifs are different, one is from the "Shallow N" and one is from the "Bold N" designs. Sorry, I do not have a Mint State example of this one, but the pic clearly shows what I am referring to.
    1870 ddr.jpg

    The Bold N Reverse is found in 1870, 1871, 1872, and was used exclusively in dates 1873-1876, 1878-1909. Notice how the shape of the serifs look more like the horn on a bugle. Agian, look where the arrows point to see what I am talking about.

    bold N.jpg

    Some 1877 Counterfeit detection pointers are
    1.) Bold N reverse. The Bold N was used on the proofs in 1877, however there are maybe just a handful floating around as circulated pieces.
    2.) If the shape of the serif is "bugle-like", someone has altered the coin to make the "N" look weak.
    3.) On poorly counterfeited coins the last feather on the obverse points between the C and the A in AMERICA.

    Hope this helps understand the differences of the reverse types.

    RR
     
  14. RedRaider

    RedRaider Well-Known Member

    Thats a nice 1871 Shallow N and is worth a hefty premium over the Bold N counterpart!!
     
  15. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

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