NGC or PCGS: The Ultimate Poll

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And the grade done by the TPG is not an opinion? Why is TPG opinion "correct"? I hate grading by photos, but I am usually pretty darn close even by photo here. Is my opinion, or Paul's, or Doug's "hearsay"? No, they are, (admittedly not perfect since the coin is not in our hands), other opinions on the grade.

If you seriously believe that if you send a coin in 10 times to any TPG and will always get the same "scientific" grade back, then you have a lot to learn I believe sir. There is a whole mini-industry built on resubmitting coins and getting higher grades in return.

 

No that isn't what I said at all. You are twisting my words. What I said is that you can't judge the accuracy of what TPGs do unless you have submitted many coins to them. You can, of course, grade a coin independently of any third party. However, all your grade means is your opinion (or my opinion) of what you think the coin would grade. I am not trying to convince you of anything--my point of view is that if you wish to disparage the grading ability or accuracy of TPGs, you had better have had plenty of personal experience with them--not just looking at other people's jpegs, but your own submissions.

 

That is exactly why I said coin grading is subjective in nature, and not scientific. However, I do believe that TPGs get it right most of the time. Are there mistakes and variances? Of course--nobody is omniscient. The advantage of a TPG is that they are a "third party" and not party to the buy-sell transaction--they are an intermediary and would tend to be more objective.

 

And the grades on the TPG label, are also just that, an opinion.

 

Professional opinions from experienced professionals in the field. If I had a toothache, I'd rather get the opinion of a dentist, than any random hobbyist.

 

Ahh but they ARE, though indirectly, a party to the buy-sell transaction. It's their label, with an opinion, people are relying on for the buy-sell transaction to happen, and in some cases with a higher price tag. As far as being more objective, I find to be highly questionable. The TPGs know, as do many, the more of their label circulating in the market, the more chances of increasing revenues from new memberships and submissions, as well as repeat business.

 

Fine chew it all you want, it still is an opinion carrying no more, or less, weight than that of any collector or dealer experienced in grading coins.

 

That would kind of depend on the dentist though, right? How about a dentist who is short of money and needs to pay a college tuition, are you going to trust him if he tells you he needs a root canal?

I will believe the grade assigned by many here over that of a TPG. You should too if you wish to understand how coins used to be graded. Some MS63's I would not grade higher than a AU55, if that. If you wish to understand historical auction prices, you are kidding yourself if all you know how to do is replicate current TPG grading. To say US coins are overgraded is so well known it doesn't even need to be spoken to those who understand how coins were graded for centuries before TPGers.

Sorry sir, but we participated in a "guess the grade" just a couple of weeks ago. You guessed I believe 2 grades too high, and I was the first to guess the correct grade. Why are you calling me and other members here just "random hobbyists"? I believe if you learn who is who you will find some exceptionally talented numismatists here, (not including myself, I was just illustrating a point, heck I don't even collect US anymore).

Chris

 

Dang, ran out of popcorn. BRB

 

Congrats on guessing the correct grade. That give you even expertise with the graders at PCGS and NGC? RIGHT? No, it means you were right on that one example and wrong on others, i am sure. I was wrong, and never pretend to be the best grader in the world, despite being an experienced hobbyist. That is exactly what most of us are--hobbyists. The folks at the TPG services are pros, whether you like it or not, and whether or not you use them. I am sure you and others are "talented hobbyists," but I'd trust my grading opinions to professionals who are objective third parties--despite the intimations of collusion and bias with TPGs, on the whole, they are more accurate than MOST collectors, as that is all they do for years and years. Do you make a living with coins? I do not, and as such will trust the professional over your opinion. Nothing personal, nor any insult intended--just the facts as I see it.

Not too many dentists would do a root canal just to "make a few bucks for the kid's college fund." Most of them would do what is necessary as professionals in their field. Same goes for TPG professionals.

 

I would wear "talented hobbyist" as a badge of honor sir, and would tell you that most "talented hobbyists" are probably more informed, and better experts in the series that they collect than any TPG can ever be. There are many early american copper collectors I would trust their grade on coppers than any TPG. I would trust Ardatirion or Doug Smith's grade on ancients way before any TPG. I would trust Lehigh's grade on a Jefferson nickel before I would trust a TPG. A TPG grader is a generalist who has a few seconds to grade a coin. How that will systematically lead to superior results over someone who may have spent decades studying a series is beyond me.

Also, of course TPG are good at their grades because they refuse to actually follow a grading guide outside of their own heads. By definition, if PCGS gives a coin a 63, its a PCGS 63 because that is what they gave it. There is no arguing, because there is no standard. Kind of hard beating that system. Now, the fact that coin was maybe fairly graded as a AU55 when it was sold in the 60's doesn't matter, PCGS just made it a PCGS 63, and you will pay accordingly. That is what the submitter to PCGS is counting on.

I am just stupid enough to wish to grade properly, and according to historical grading standards. I can see what the TPG are doing, since I am decent enough at guessing their grades too, but it doesn't mean I don't hold my nose while doing it.

 

That is not an apt analogy Chris, and you know it!

Wow, this is exactly the mentality that I was talking about earlier. I don't care how long you have been collecting coins Chris, you simply don't have the experience and expertise of a professional grader. They go to work and grade coins all day long. In short, they are experts. You and everyone else here is an amateur. Some are rank amateurs. To claim that MANY here can grade better than the experts at NGC or PCGS is absolutely ludicrous. Now if you wanted to say that you don't agree with the grading standards applied by the TPG's and you prefer the strict grading style employed by some members here, that would make sense. But you need to understand that the grading method applied by the TPG's is what is accepted in the broader marketplace. You have the luxury of not having to worry about that since you don't sell your coins, but for those that do, they are pretty much obligated to use the grading standards employed by the TPG's.


So to you and Doug, "wear is wear", but in the broader numismatic market that does not hold true. US coins are not overgraded, they are market graded. Do you know how long PCGS waited to tackle this issue in their book: PCGS THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION? It is on page 16 Chris. My question to you Chris, is why should anyone concern themselves with how coins USED to be graded?

 

You obviously haven't seen a dentist in a long time if you believe that. Most will try and convince a patient a root canal is needed, when an extraction, at a fraction of the cost of a root canal, can accomplish the same thing, ending the pain experienced from the bad tooth.

 

I don't feel the same way. I'd trust the third party grader, as they have no vested interest in the coin one way or another at which they are looking. This is in no way minimizing anyone's expertise--merely indicating that we all have biases, whereas a company whose reputation is based on objectivity and uniform standards with a guarantee along with the service is more likely to get it right. That is a matter of common sense.

Enough with this endless debate--back and forth, and like politics, nobody is convinced sufficiently so as to change their beliefs.

 

Oh please! Are you really that cynical? I pity you if your level of trust is that low of professionals in general.

 

Accepted only because of the loose standards employed by the TPGs, that stray from the decades old ANA standards, which aid the market.

 

Well let's see, extractions can cost about $125, root canals are over $1500.

As I said, you obviously haven't seen a dentist in a long time.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think some of those "experts" became graders to begin with?

 

So, if you don't know how coins were graded except in the short time frame TPG have been in existence, how do you interpret past prices Paul? How do you interpret past condition census'? Should we just ignore/lose this knowledge of our hobby built up over centuries before the TPG came to "save" us from ourselves?

So, I am curious. Do you really believe a PCGS grader giving a Jeff 3 seconds attention is grading that coin better than you can Paul?

Btw, you say people are obligated to use the standards employed by the TPGers. Which ones? 1988 standards, mid 90's, today? I can assure you they are very different grading standards, especially for certain grades. So which ones is the market "obligated" to use? This is why I prefer to learn to grade myself, and judge a coin according to real standards that have not changed. If I am happy with the coin based on those standards, I will buy it, (and more often than not fire up the bandsaw).

I admit I am lucky since I only collect. However, all of us here are buyers of coins. Why aren't all of us free to grade the coins ourselves? Why are any of us "obligated" to use TPG grades that demonstrably change over time?