Grade this Morgan / Has it been cleaned?

Hi all, this is kind of a continuation of my other thread;

http://www.cointalk.com/t204387/

I received a very expensive lot of coins from ebay and am worried that quite a few of them are "lightly" cleaned. A number of them have hairlines under a 10x loupe and this is supposed to be the best of the bunch. There are non-cleaned (at least I think) coins in really good condition but they aren't keys. I might need to get a dealer's opinion on some of these. Note that most of the hairlines follow the same "pathway" ie: on the entire coin, the lines are perfectly parallel to one another. Here's the front of the coin;



I tried to get two angles so you could see the lines most notably in the hair. The lines go in the same direction the entire way (even through the rim edge and date numbers) This almost makes me think it isn't cleaned? Now for the reverse;



I don't know if you can see it but a few of the small crevices look scratched / cleaned to me. Though it is possible that it is natural. I don't know if you can see the bottom of the coin but there are lines going up again and they are off and on through most of the eagle, similar to the front.

Note: The coin still does "cartwheels" in the light. There are a couple of other coins that I got that don't, but this one does.

Also, please let me know what you think it might be graded through PCGS.

Thanks!

 

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The angle in which you've photographed the coin makes it tough to make-out how "chattery" the surfaces may be, but, IMHO, the coin looks no lower than MS63.

Nice one!

-Brian

EDIT: And, No, I detect no signs of prior cleaning. Surfaces look original... Or - like any other mint-state 19th-century Silver coin that has retained white luster - has been properly dipped.

 

MS63. Face is pretty baggy. Minor rim ding obverse @ 1:00. Fields aren't the cleanest, either. The date could bump it a little, but I don't see this making a 64.

Spencer

 

Both strong MS63. All 100year old silver coins without toning have been cleaned

 

Pretty much what I was thinking as well as long as the surface isn't altered. However, the seller claimed that it was MS66+, which influenced my bid a little bit. He was close on most of the others (A lot actually look way better than this one, which is weird because he claimed this was in the best condition). You could imagine I would be pretty disappointed w/ a 63. Before I received it I was hoping it would be a 64-65 at worst, which I know that isn't the case. Looks like these coins might be going back. I don't really want to pop these out with the result being a super low grade or a "genuine" holder.

 

This is the supposed 66 coin? Not a chance or even close.

This VAM is common yet popular, but not worthy of a real premium IMO.

 

I'm sorry to say but this does not look like a MS63 if its even gradable. From the 2nd picture of the obverse you posted there seems to be a long scratch running from the to top hair leaf all the way to the U in UNUM. The reverse looks suspect, the top part of the right wing has a lot of lines running through it. It looks like scratches from a cleaning job.

 

Are you saying you paid MS66 money for the coin? If so, you got taken................

-Brian

 

For some reason, I believe the "scratch" you're refering to is on the coin's plastic window holder... But, without sufficient photos, there's no way of saying for sure.

And the lines running through the wings are part of the coin's design - They're feathers.

-Brian

 

Your right, my mistake. For some reason it looked like there were too many lines.

 

Sorry,

The "scratch" in question that runs horizontally is actually a piece of dog hair sitting on top of the plastic sheet. Whoops! Has anyone noticed the vertical scratching along the hair? You can see it best in the 2nd obverse pic.

Additionally, I did not pay 66 money for the coin. Realistically I paid MS 63-64 money for the coin if the other valuable coins are close to their estimates.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150789286480?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

My conservative estimates when computing the value of the coins was $5500-6000 with this key coin being a 63-64. If it was indeed an MS65, I paid for all the coins with that one. If it turned out to be a 66 as claimed (greysheet is $15k+) then I'd be fainting. Biggest thing I am worried about is the fact that a number of these coins (4-5) look cleaned with a wire brush. "Lightly" cleaned (meaning you can't really see the hairlines with the naked eye) but very obvious under 10x magnification.

 

JBlade, I think the best thing for you to do is to get a book or do a search here on grading. Grading is hard enough but this will save you lots of headaches in the future. You can also use Photograde on the PCGS website as a quick reference.

 

Already have one, I just wanted to get the consensus of more seasoned eyes as to whether this (and others) might be cleaned. The grading inquiry was more secondary, especially if it wasn't cleaned. I have a bunch MS64 / 65 Morgans to compare it to and it definitely doesn't stack up. However, I haven't seen coins with these types of scratches or "hairlines"

 

The Reverse is very nice. I'd say 65 Reverse with a 63 Obv.

 

I may have just answered my own questions as far as cleaning is concerned. I took the advice of icerain and checked out PCGS's photograde and noticed that on the MS65 Morgan picture, there is a TON of hairlines. Much like the coins that are in this collection. For reference;

http://www.pcgs.com/photograde/#/Morgan/Grades

However, it still is noted on a few of the "hairlined" morgans that some of them don't show the "cartwheel luster" that most of the others do. This attributes to me thinking they might be cleaned.

Btw, thank you everyone for your input. It's making me feel a little less inept.

 

Its MS63 and i see no signs of cleaning (besides a good dip)

The obverse is just too chatty to warrent more.

 

The coin appears to me to be cleaned and/or overdipped. Surfaces, particularly obverse, look "odd" to my eye.

 

I hate grading Morgan Dollars. There's too much to look for on these pieces. This coin has some very positive and negative features. What concerns me a bit is the coin having a scratch by the lower plumage on the reverse and parts of the hair on the obverse look weak (unless it is the strike). If it is the strike being weak but not worn I can imagine an MS-65 grade however if the hits (marks) on the relief of this coin bother the grader enough I can imagine an AU-58 grade being possible. Also as for whether or not it was dipped, it's too hard to know unless the coin is present and in front of you in real life. I say submit it and let's see how this plays out.

 

I want to submit it, however the LAST thing I want is for this thing to come back ungraded. Or less than a grade of MS63. I'm going to try and take the collection to a dealer tomorrow and see what they think. I might be returning this to the seller unfortunately. The situation just doesn't feel right. I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of altered coins that I can't get rid of, especially for that much money.

 

Tpg grade 63+ or 64 , coin was probably dipped but it doesn't look bad in the pics to me .