Daniel Carr

Geez, I come across a place where my interests intersect it seems: Discussion of counterfeit coinage vs. fantasy coinage with a response from Daniel Carr, himself.

Indeed the designation of "counterfeit" in the most general sense is a very thin line, almost wholly dependent upon intent and context. A counterfeit is meant to deceive where a fantasy piece is meant to inspire. Unfortunately, a fantasy piece in the wrong hands can quickly become a counterfeit, where more fortunately a discovered counterfeit in the right hands can become a fantasy piece once more.

These Chinese fakes, although they are marketed officially as "replicas" are -- without a doubt -- counterfeits. They're made of cheap materials and are even often artificially aged and are even put in modern PCGS slabs (with copied ID numbers; blatant fraud) to be found on auctions and wholesale sites to be re-sold as the genuine article. Their manufacturers bank upon the fact that once they leave their shop, their provenance is forgotten, and that is how they get repeat customers (i.e. dubious re-sellers).

Daniel's fantasy coin products on the other hand are made *for* numismatists and represent things that your average numismatist will have interest in (for example, his 2009 proof-like ASE; I admit that's my favorite ). They are not products that are really intended (and Daniel, please correct me if I'm wrong) to circulate in non-informed circles, for to do so would be at the very least a breach of their terms of sale. An uninformed numismatist cannot fully appreciate, say, a fantasy 1964 Peace Dollar, because the history behind the striking and mass-melting of all genuine coins for that year is what generates its novelty, and -- when the fantasy piece is held in hand -- a sort of boyish wonder. Where the legality seems a little bit "fuzzy" (and in my opinion it was written to be a bit fuzzy in the first place) it does favor Daniel's work.

Now, I do have a number of Daniel's pieces that are going to be featured in The Black Cabinet when I get around to it. I feel that it is extremely important to have an information page out there for people to read up on their provenance in the unfortunate event that someone tries to be dishonest (as dishonesty can happen anywhere once a piece is sold). However, under the ID system I've developed, these fantasy pieces firmly fall under the heading of Altered Coins, and not Counterfeits; the difference in designation is quantitative as a matter of manufacture.

Actually now that I am entertaining the notion: Daniel, would you be willing to team up some time in the future to put together a list of defining characteristics of your fantasy pieces to tell them apart from other pieces for The Black Cabinet? I'm also eventually going to start a price guide counterfeits and fantasy pieces as well, so this may very well become an important tool.

Peace,
-Steve

 

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This very well may be true. I stood behind a table at a show several months ago and got into a discussion over one of these 1964 Peace Dollars that a guy put away back in the mid 60's, he had several articles with him that he had printed off the internet showing stuff about how they were minted by the US Government and recalled and his was the only one that survived and was smuggled out etc... I told him that if IF it were real it would be illegal to own and would be confiscated much like the 1933 Gold coins. He laughed and said, yea that's going over well isn't it.

So to make sure I understand here.
A. if the 1903CC had been pressed here in the US it would of been ok because it would of been a fantasy product?
B. I have seen Bust Halves that pass the silver test coming out of China. (Particularly 1830-1833's) So I guess that makes them fantasy pieces instead of fakes.
C. What a coin is sold as and what the person buying it shares are FAR different. The guy who had the 64 Peace Dollar swore up and down he got it back in the mid 60's. (Yes it was a DC coin, the diagnostics were on the coin) ( for those who dont know, there is a small die gouge next to the D mintmark and an extra ray like the 21 has )
D. Won't get into the legal issues as I am certainly not qualified to do so. Like I said, it must be legal or DC would have been told to stop long before now.
E. The Bust halves were not that Bad Daniel. Had it not been for Die Marriages (Overton) I would imagine that 90% of the dealers at any given show would purchase them as real. Susan Headly has proven this down at FUN in the past if I remember correctly.
F. I don't know how the Chinese are striking, punching, melting or whatever their products vs. how your doing it. I know that you purchased a used mint press. Whats to say they haven't as well?

Again, don't get me wrong here DC, I am not against what your doing as long as people are buying the product go for it. I am telling you first hand that the product once it leaves you starts a new life and folks think they have hit the lottery. Now in one regards I guess you should take that as a compliment because your work is very good.

 

The bottom line is either you guys buy them or you don't but even if you don't you gotta realize that many people do and they are not counterfeits. Nobody is gonna think they won the lottery when they get one of these overstrikes, that is just ridiculous! :rollling: My suggestion is to go to Carr's website and then look up one of the coins so you can see it. Then look up a friend who has one so you can see it in hand. Maybe then you will know.

 

Would you really feel sorry for someone getting scammed, thinking they had bought an authentic 1964-D Peace Dollar?


They are illegal to own. The only way a person would be able to purchase one would be under clandestine conditions. He would deserve getting scammed.

With all the information out there on the Carr Peace dollar, who would be stupid enough to even consider buying one thinking they are the real deal without some type of investigating. Are there even any diagnostics on the authentic '64-D's? I don't think there is even a photo of one.

 

I will state that I believe they are fantasy. I have said this before, and if this thread will not die soon enough, I will probably say it again. I have always (in my time collecting) wanted a "mule" of a VDB Lincoln cent reverse and IHC obverse, with a date like 2012. I just would want to have a BLAZING red thing like that. It would be so much cheaper to buy an overstike with the IHC and VDB Lincoln than to have the originals in red. For me, a hope like that constitutes demand, while very little because it is one person, so if there was a bigger demand, then someone might make a supply. That is just how I look at this.

 

"1903" Morgan Dollars exist. I'm only over-striking with dates that don't exist. And I'm only over-striking on genuine coins of the same type. A "1903-CC" Morgan Dollar could potentially be considered either a "fake" or a "fantasy" - it depends on the context, the intent, how it was made, and what it was struck on. A Morgan dollar with a date that was never originally minted (like my "1909" over-strikes) is obviously not entirely a US Mint product, and if presented appropriately as such, it is a "fantasy" coin.

No, if they were made and presented with intent to deceive, then they are fakes. And they are not struck over existing genuine coins - so their legal tender status is counterfeit currency. And genuine Bust Half Dollars 1830-1833 already exist. I'm not over-striking coins with dates that already exist, according to the government. And all my over-strikes are on legal-tender coins (I'm not claiming legal tender status after the over-strike, however).

That guy sounds like a patholigical liar, or was "pulling your leg". He can not have had one of my over-strikes since the 1960s. A person intent on lying can always find some coin to lie about, one way or the other.

The Chinese are striking on anonymous blanks of metal. That makes them counterfeit currency. I'm striking on genuine coins of the same type. That makes mine altered coins, not counterfeit currency. The only thing that really matters about the press is the tonnage it can stamp with. However, using a surplus Denver Mint coin press for over-striking adds a certain "cachet" to the product, as does the fact that the over-strikes are done by a known person who designed coins for the US Mint.

Yes, I have heard many stories of people thinking they have "hit the lottery" with their coins, only find out they didn't even get a free lunch. But these people rarely have invested a lot of their own money in the coins - they generally don't know anything about coins and got them from a relative or from a TV commercial for $19.95 .

 

As I learned on my daddy's knee: There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

 

If someone is buying them for silver value and it was not silver then yes I would feel they got scammed.

 

Just to clarify, the "1964-D" Peace Dollar over-strikes that I made were struck on genuine Peace Silver dollars - no metal added or removed, no heating or melting. So they have the same metallic content as any other Peace Silver Dollar.

 

Anyone who ends up with a Carr 1964 Peace Dollar and thinks they really have an original US Mint coin is not all there in the head. Either that or they have the eyesight of Mr. Magoo!

It's really funny how the subject of DC and counterfeits keeps coming up. I bet you could go to the archives and see how many people have brought this subject up and fought passionately to prove their point only to find out, they're wrong. Get the coin in hand people!! It looks great but it is obviously a fantasy issue. :thumb:

 

You didn't read my first sentence correctly. If someone gets scammed trying to buy an illegal coin which proves to not be authentic, I'll laugh long and hard and not feel sorry for him at all. The value of silver will pale in comparison to the amount of money he will lose putting out for an authentic 1964-D Peace dollar.

Who would he complain to? The police? He'd be committing a crime by purchasing the illegal coin in the first place. And he would be stupid in the second place by not checking the authenticity before spending 6 or 7 figures.

 

It most certainly DOES make a difference what I strike on ! The whole legal tender issue is different.
Counter-stamping over an existing coin makes it an altered coin.
Stamping the same thing on an anonymous metal blank would not be considered an "altered" coin.

Using existing coins as planchets does not necessarily save money. It is MORE work, in fact.
And, for example, Morgan and Peace silver dollars cost MORE per ounce than 999 silver blanks.

You claim that "once you strike them they are no longer genuine US coins". On what legal grounds do you make that claim ? Do you have a court case or a law on the books you can point to ? Note that I'm not claiming legal-tender status for my over-strikes. But I only use legal-tender coins for over-striking. Are they legal tender after the over-striking ? I don't claim that they are. But I also don't believe there is any relevant law or court case covering this situation.

 

Check it out gang! As I mentioned on my first post in this thread I had ordered one of Daniel Carr's 1931 Standing Liberty Quarters (overstrikes). Well that same day I posted I received my coins in the mail. I put them away and today I happened across them and realized Daniel had autographed one. Super!! Thank you Daniel, made my day!! :yes: I take lousy pics but I wanted y'all to see!! :thumb:

 

If you take a legal tender Peace Dollar and ding it with a hammer so that the date is blanked out, is it still Legal Tender? Yes. Is a PO1 Peace Dollar still Legal Tender? Yes. If you take a PO1 Peace Dollar and ding it up with a hammer a few times is it still Legal Tender? Maybe? Depends on the damage.

The fact is that it's impossible to draw a definite line as to where wear and damage destroy the "Legal Tender" of a coin (again, "at how many grains of sand does a pile become a mound?"). That's the technicality that Carr is banking on.

Fine silver planchets require less processing, as .900 silver planchets are made from fine silver that is then additionally alloyed with copper. With today's prices, the alloying process costs more than the 10% reduction of silver in the metal when contracting in bulk, and because of this the US Mint itself is considering making such a switch. In other words, yes coin silver has less intrinsic value but it actually costs more to manufacture.

This was in the news not too long ago. Read: http://www.coinworld.com/articles/mint-touts-cost-savings-in-999-silver-switch/

 

Regardless of who thinks that these Fantasy Creations are "Copies" -
or - "tokens", I think they are just what they are intended to be : Fantasies.

I saw the 1964-D Peace Dollar that a friend bought a year
or so ago and was attracted to it - but at the retail level my
friend paid for it, I decided not to get one.

Recently, I thought the Brass issue of the 1861 Confederate States
Double Eagle would be a neat addition to my 1861 Mint Set
( my Great Grandfather's birth year ).

When I inquired about getting one, they were sold out.
However, Mr. Carr mentioned that he would be producing
two special Strikings of this Fantasy Piece. One would be
an over strike on a Type One Double Eagle
( which I would have to provide ) and a Bullion strike with
.999 Fine Gold - and the edge would be imprinted with this
information.

The bullion version was what I opted for and I had the
Confederate Double Eagle sent to ANACS for encapsulation
( as a safe guard against any possible handling mishaps. )

I also am a huge fan of Standing Liberty Quarters -
so, it was a natural for me to get the 1931-S ( first issue ) .
I have every intention of getting this SLQ in a Capitol Plastic
Holder - and use it as a paper weight.

It's not that I am trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes
with regards to these two pieces, I enjoy them, and I know
what they are. When my estate has to deal with the disbursal
of my holdings, I know that knowledgable Numismatists
will ferret out these these pieces and advise my heirs of their
true value. I have already advised the executor of my estate
of these pieces.

 

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the fact is, there is no US law which establishes the amount of change to a coin to nullify the legal tender status. So no, I don't "know it". We are never going to agree on this issue.

Yes, I have an 1812 Brazil 960-Reis struck over a Mexico City Mint Bust 8-Reals. But foreign laws regarding coinage do no apply in the United States. I say again: there is no US law which establishes the amount of change to a coin to nullify the legal tender status.

Is the Morgan dollar lump still legal tender ? Please point to the law which establishes that it isn't. Of course, nobody is going to accept it as a dollar. But the actual legal status (in terms of legal tender) is not defined. I'd also like to point out that when I over-strike a coin, traces of the original design remain, and so my over-strikes are never "completely unreckognizable".

Well, I never claim that my over-strikes are from antiquity. I clearly state their vintage and origins, which is a combination of old and new. Your example gold crown fragment coins are a combination of old and new.

You are free to call it whatever you like. I'm significantly changing the coin, but I am not 100% obliterating it.

You should reconsider your position on what "most other people think". Let them speak for themselves (see the poll at the top of this thread).

I said existing .900 coins are generally more expensive per ounce. I can get fabricated ready-to-use (rimmed, annealed, burnished) 1-troy-oz 999 silver blanks for $0.75 over "spot". So, at present, these blanks would cost me about $32.75 . Ordinary Morgan and Peace dollars currently cost at least $28 in bulk. At 0.77 troy oz per coin, that comes out to the equivalent of over $36.25 per troy oz of silver.

PS:
This web page has a brief but good synopsis of the laws regarding "mutilation" of US coins:
http://www.parkpennies.com/pressed-penny/penny-pressing-legal.htm

 

Hey Daniel,
Any new designs coming soon that we should know about? I'm sure it's probably top secret for business reasons and that's cool but how about a time frame when you expect to release?

 

This week I'm going to start work on a new Titanic-themed Hard Times token. Possibly for release in May.
No specific plans yet, but I have in mind to do a new 2-oz silver hologram coin, and poured and stamped 5-oz silver bars.