Educate Me, How in the world can this be MS 65?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Silverhouse, Apr 12, 2012.

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  1. Silverhouse

    Silverhouse Well-Known Member

    Silverhouse, Apr 12, 2012
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  3. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Pictures can show a lot or hide a lot. That one is blurry enough to not even look real.
     
    rlm's cents, Apr 12, 2012
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  4. Lon Chaney

    Lon Chaney Well-Known Member

    Maybe it's just a bad photo. Looks like some undesirable toning, but it could be MS 65.
     
    Lon Chaney, Apr 12, 2012
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  5. rodeoclown

    rodeoclown Dodging Bulls

    Like the others said, poor photos and the toning is obscuring the likely true grade.
     
    rodeoclown, Apr 12, 2012
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  6. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    Just a combination of a bad photo and toning, like what the others have posted
     
    jcakcoin, Apr 12, 2012
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  7. Numis-addict

    Numis-addict Addicted to coins

    It could also be a label mix up. You pay for their OPINION, but that does not mean they don't make mistakes.
     
    Numis-addict, Apr 12, 2012
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  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    A lot of people get confused with coins like this one, even when they see them in hand, not understanding how such a coin could be worthy of the grade assigned. They seem to think that every coin graded MS65 or higher must have bright, shiny, silvery, luster. Or bright rainbow colors that let the luster come through.

    Well, that simply is NOT the case. Coins similar to the one posted can be graded, and accurately graded, even as high as MS67. And they have been graded as such, and rightly so.

    This is because there are many different criteria that go into the grading of a coin. And it is the sum of these criteria that determine the grade, not just the aspect of one individual criteria.

    And that goes both ways, but the TPGs don't always see it that way.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 13, 2012
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  9. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    And that is why you skip auctions with blurry photos. Is it as Doug says or others say - too much risk. Just skip those auctions. My person opinion is it is just a flat, lifeless coin.
     
    mark_h, Apr 13, 2012
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  10. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    junk
     
    JCB1983, Apr 13, 2012
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  11. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    I'd have to see that coin in hand. It is marked as full bell. I can't see that detail. it also seems to have too many contact marks to grade as a MS65. And really, ANA standards do say that there should be considerable luster on a coin rated that high.

    Amanda
     
    areich, Apr 13, 2012
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  12. TheCoinGeezer

    TheCoinGeezer Senex Bombulum

    All of which goes to prove: BUY THE COIN, NOT THE SLAB
     
    TheCoinGeezer, Apr 14, 2012
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  13. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    just ugly toning.
     
    Treashunt, Apr 14, 2012
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Are you sure those are all contact marks ? Or could a lot, or even some of them, be the toning itself making you think you are seeing contact marks ? I sure can't say either way based on those pics. As you say, and as I said, you'd have to see the coin in hand.

    As for the luster - suppose the coin has all the attributes, besides luster, that an MS66 or a 67 would have ? If that were the case then the coin could easily be worthy of an MS65 grade.

    And a lot of people get confused by the luster issue. They think that in order for a coin to have good luster that the coin has to be bright and shiny and that you have to be able to see the cartwheel effect when you turn the coin in the light.

    Well, that's not true. A coin have great luster and you'll never see the cartwheel effect. How can that be ? Easy, you just have to know what luster really is. Luster is not the cartwheel effect. The cartwheel effect is merely something is caused, something that is created by luster. What luster really is is a series of very fine lines across the surface of a coin which were created by the metal flowing when the coin was struck. And those very fine lines caused by the metal flow could very easily be on that coin, meaning the coin has good luster. You just can't see them in those pics because the toning is keeping the light from being reflected back to your eye.

    But if you saw the coin in hand, and looked at it with a glass, then you'd see that those very fine lines are there, that the luster is there.

    Yeah I know, probably sounds weird me defending how a coin is graded. But that's not what I am doing. What I am doing is explaining how grading really works, that things that not everybody knows or even thinks of.

    There are a million exceptions, a million different combinations of various things that go into determining the grade of a coin. And this is just one of them.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 14, 2012
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  15. areich

    areich America*s Darling

    [​IMG]

    Good Afternoon,

    Everything you said is valid. But looking at the facts on hand that we have, once the toning develops on the panatella of an artifact to this degree, it is almost impossible to get a view of the luster in photography. This was one of the things that surprised early photographers, but all the glisten and gleam that one sees with gold and silver that painters like Clasen faithfully reproduce is almost impossible to get with still photography because of the complete lack of movement of the camera, thereby recording a single angle of light. This image is consistent with a coin that has a possibility of real luster because the toning is rather even and then some of the marks might actually be stress lines possibly attenuated by rubbing in the slab.

    However, a strike this weak, I still find hard to believe is full bell.

    Amanda
     
    areich, Apr 14, 2012
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  16. snapsalot

    snapsalot Member

    I do not see a single contact mark on this coin. I believe you are looking at the toning and thinking the streaks are marks.
     
    snapsalot, Apr 14, 2012
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  17. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    Yeah... I'd bet that the coin doesn't look nearly that bad in hand...

    Those look like a combination of some unattractive toning and horrible pictures.
     
    LostDutchman, Apr 14, 2012
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  18. Danr

    Danr Numismatist

    bad photo and scratches on slab
     
    Danr, Apr 14, 2012
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  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I agree 100%.

    But I still think the coin is dreck and wouldn't buy it with someone else's money. With a population of 700/472 it would be very easy to find an absolutely gorgeous example of the issue without wasting money on this POS.
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 14, 2012
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  20. tristen1230

    tristen1230 New Member

    How is it a bad photo if the writing on the slab is clear?
     
    tristen1230, Apr 14, 2012
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  21. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The label is a piece of paper and very easy to photograph. Photographing a coin is not nearly as simple. Photographing a toned coin and making the result look like the coin in hand is extremely difficult. It isn't simply about focus.
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 14, 2012
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