Daniel Carr

First of all, I didn't call you stupid or accuse you of being derelict and I resent those made up remarks and accusations.

Secondly, I read this entire thread, including your remarks, and am still amazed at the simple concepts that got overlooked and disregarded. It's not "stupid" as you would call it, it's not seeing the forest for the trees........while planting more trees.

Furthermore, you DO always quote definitions AND websites to prove your point when most of the time you end up proving the counterpoint for someone else. It's like you are so adamant to try and prove that you are the one that is correct that you completely miss the overall concept.

I don't always agree with Doug, its usually 50/50, but in this case I have to agree 100%.

 

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Whew, I just finished reading all 10 pages of posts in this topic. I'd like to comment on the one quoted above.

"Fantasy coins" is only part of what I do. I make coin club medals, modern "pioneer" gold coins, all sorts of things. At the core of it, I think about what sorts of things I'd like to have as a collector myself, and then I make them. Simple as that. If I am also able to sell them to pay the bills, well, that is an added benefit. If I wasn't having fun and wasn't enjoying the things I make, I'd stop doing it.

I don't offer anything that I wouldn't consider collecting myself. So the notion that I would think that any of my customers are "idiots" is completely false.

Going from the state quarter program to private minting is a major step UP, not down, in my opinion.

Lastly, a total quantity of 582 over-struck "1909-o" Morgan Dollars is not exactly "mass produced". At least, not compared to state quarters or most offerings by other public and private mints.

 

IMO, these are fantasy pieces because they never existed or were not released to the general public. If someone is stupid enough to buy a 1964 Franklin half or a 1964 Peace dollar or a 1970 Ike dollar Daniel Carr fantasy piece in the future thinking it is a mint error or some mint rarity, that is their own fault for not doing the research or obtaining the knowledge needed. My only issue (and it is a minor one) with the fantasy overstrikes is that actual legal tender coins are used in the process. I know that this makes them match the actual specifications of the coin, but it does remove an actual legal tender and often collectable coin from the marketplace. TC

 

It all comes down to the conscience of the maker. If he's okay releasing these, knowing a uneducated second buyer might get burned because copy wasn't affixed to the piece then end of story. I couldn't do it.

 

This seems like the classic straw man logic. That is, create a very improbable but bad situation, make it sound as if the party is 100% responsible for it and thus, the party is doing a bad thing. Mr Carr isn't misrepresenting his coins. If someone else does in the future, I don't see how he could possibly be held responsible for that.

Anyone purchasing an item based on its numismatic value has the responsibility to educate themselves on what they are buying. If not, as I have often noted from my own travels, they will find that an education and gaining experience costs money. In this case, we are talking about the price of a silver coin. I really doesn't seem like something to get that worked up over. Certainly there are much more significant issues for coin collectors being created by real counterfeiters and on-line and TV dealers attempting to sell $19 coins as $2000 gold coins. This is where people get really burnt.

 

Where did I say Mr Carr's name? Where did I say anyone was misrepresenting anything? What is improbable about someone reselling the coin? You have just proven all of your rhetoric is extremely weak and filled with your made up distortions. Please have someone older than you explain what is being said before you post baseless comments. I am underwhelmed by your ability to comprehend simple concepts.

 

This is true. However, the coins I use for over-striking are generally quite common and often have been cleaned or have other problems like scratches, etc. I also examine the coins for scarcer varietites before over-striking. I just found a full-date 1927-S quarter in the batch of Standing Liberty coins I was preparing to over-strike (I saved it, of course - it is a $30 coin).

When I was doing the Morgan and Peace dollars, I found some good VAMs that I saved.

 

If someone is determined to commit a numismatic scam, they will find a coin to do it with. Even if I had never made any of these over-stikes, there are still plenty of candidate coins (altered, whizzed, repaired, etc).

If a seller KNOWINGLY mis-represents a coin when selling it, the fault is always going to lie with the seller making the false claims, not the maker of the coin.

In the case of the "1964-D" over-strike Peace dollars, for example, who is going to pay a high price for one ? A novice who knows nothing of the story of the original 1964-D dollars is extremely unlikely to hand over a lot of money for something they know nothing about. Sure, they may risk parting with $100 or so, but they won't be spending thousands. And who is to say that the fair market value of such an over-strike isn't over $100 anyway ? So who would pay a lot for one ? Only a person with knowledge of the story of the original 1964-D dollars. And in buying such a coin, the buyer would have to assume one of two things - either the coin is a modern re-creation of some sort, or it is an original (illegal to own and subject to immediate confiscation by the government). Either way, the buyer would KNOWINGLY be taking a risk.

 

Bless your heart son, look at the top of the page. The topic says Daniel Carr. If you were talking about someone else, you should have made yourself clear. If you didn't know this topic was about Daniel Carr, then I don't see where you can accuse anyone of made up distortions.

Of course I'm man enough to admit a mistake if I mis interpreted you. Please tell us exactly who you are talking about when made your statement concerning a person's conscience and producing coins?

 

'
I admire Dan and his work. I am also intrigued with his strategy. He gave a talk at our coin club a year or two ago and we have talked a few times about touring his facility.
I believe his coins are fantasy, not counterfeits. To the uneducated they may be analogous to a gold-plated V-nickel, though, and there is potential for abuse in the after-market. I say, "Let the buyer beware and they will learn."

 

Only one small comment sir. Btw I really do appreciate you coming here to discuss these issues with us. It helps a lot.

So, my main concern with all of these items is not others buying them. Its what happens when a family member inherits them. I dealt with this a lot when I was VP of a local coin club. Family members would come to our show and show me "grandpa's treasures", usually reproductions from the 50's and 60's. To an ancient collector these are comical, to them they look JUST like the pictures they see. When I tell them they are valueless, they accuse me of being a thief, a liar, all kinds of things and HURTS THE REPUTATION OF THE HOBBY. I bet they tell 100 people how big of thieves coin collectors are.

This has always been my biggest concern, what kind of reputation will the hobby as a whole get 20 or 30 years from now when family members inherit such things. This is why I wish all items that are similar to US coins be marked somehow. Either COPY, or put the word CARR hidden in the design somewhere, edge letter it, SOMETHING that I can show a family member when they ask me why its not a legitimate coin. With fake ancients, at least I can pull out a book and show them how its different, show them a casting seem, something. I thought this was the entire purpose of the HPA, to limit these things.

Short of that, I am afraid our hobby will simply pay the price of these items being inherited forever.

Just my opinion, and I promised Krispy to limit my posting on the matter, so its the only one I will ask.

Chris

 

You went back and edited your post by starting it with "bless your heart"?

THEN, added your second paragraph.......... HA HA & LOL..........

 

Fatima must love toned coins, because he changes his distortions more than a chameleon.

 

Wow... this thread is still going. I will put my two cents in that I believe anything that is made by Mr. Carr that has not ever been made before is a fantasy piece as it is not "counterfeiting" anything since it had not been made before.

And to you Mr. Carr, thank you for personally defending yourself and I want you to know that regardless of whether people think it is fake or not what you do is art pure and simple and I support anyone with the creativity and talent to do what you do.

 

Laddy are you even remotely capable of answering these 3 very simple questions:

Where did I say Mr Carr's name? Where did I say anyone was misrepresenting anything? What is improbable about someone reselling the coin?

I believe you to be very, very incapable, I'll wait for you to prove otherwise, laddy.​

 

I don't understand how he remains calm and returns to this forum in thread after thread to do so. I have talked to Daniel and interviewed him and I have to say that the man is a great guy and a class act. He never ducks from the controversy and is always willing to answer people's questions about his work.

Unfortunately, this is like the 5th thread about his coins in the last 3 years. It basically covers the same arguments and typically devolves into snarky comments between two (or more) posters. When the threads stay on topic and not personalities, there is much to learn.

For those who are truly interested in the discussion, I recommend that you search the post archives for Daniel Carr's name. There you will find some fascinating discussion and solid argument on both sides.

 

I believe that he, like all artists, is going to be subjected to criticism both positive and negative. If we believed like all the negative critics then we wouldn't have the Renaissance but a period of classical forgeries.

 

Sure I did and it also says the post was edited. I felt like it needed clarification after I hit the send button. I'm not sure why this is an issue for you. "dear heart" is a Southern term of endearment. Anyone from there knows what it means.

Beyond this persiflage however, you didn't answer the question. You basically accused someone of having no conscience for producing fantasy coins in a topic about Daniel Carr and his fantasy coins. When challenged about this you imply that you were not talking about Mr. Carr and then attempt to distract by attacking me. Of course I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. So who were you taking about?

Finally if you think I've made a distortion, then point it the specific thing I've posted where that you don't understand. I will be glad to explain it further or admit that I was wrong. I note that you have not done this even though you have made several posts directed towards me where you accuse me of such.

I ask that you do the same. You accuse me of distortions, yet you have yet to say what they are. If you have a question because you don't understand what I post, then direct it towards me. I will do all I can to answer it so there is no confusion. If you are embarrassed to do such things in the open forum, then please send a DM. Of course, if you think I'm breaking some rules, I recommend that you report me to the staff.

By this method, you won't need to post about me in the 3rd person. I'm sure the rest of the forum isn't that interested in these sorts of opinions.

 

[delete plz, dup]

 

I see your point. However, I'd like to point out that in the scenario you outlined, the inheriting party did not put any funds at risk - so they have no "investment" to lose. If some novice thinks their coin is worth a lot, and one dealer says otherwise, and if that novice then generalizes that numismatics is crooked, they are really jumping to an ill-conceived premature conclusion. A logical person would get a second opinion. Once they find that no dealer would pay much for the thing, then reality would eventually set in. Now if one dealer offered a paltry amount, and another offered a strong price, that should lead to the obvious conclusion - that some people are crooked, but not all of numismatics.

Nowdays, with the internet being so useful and so widely available, it would be easy to bring up past sales of a similar item and show the owners if they didn't believe you. The internet really has changed things, and with all the information available, it isn't difficult for any potential buyer to do a little research beforehand.