As I shop around I always come across someone saying that there are only 6 known of this or that and I'm just wondering, how do they know? :smile Are they going by how many has been graded by PCGS? Here's a link below, and most likely he's a really honest seller and a real nice guy, just like mostly all coin dealers. Since good guesses seem to be acceptable at least when selling coins or currency can anyone guess how many of these Sacramento National Notes 1929's are left? Sacramento National Notes are very scarce. The larger Sacramento Charter Notes dated other than 1929 are extremely rare. I got my brown note 1929 a couple of years ago and I haven't come across one since, except on ebay and it was going for thousands of dollars. Of course that one was graded and in tip top condition. As far as mine goes, I think it's fairly rare and possibly less than 10-15 left, but that's just a guess with no known facts at all. With that said, I have heard that a couple of guys with deep pockets collect and hoard all California National Notes. Anyone here ever hear about the deep pockets crew? Oh, please does anyone know how many Sacramento National Notes 1929's are around? Here's a pic. Super!! :thumb: http://www.jlsrarecoins.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=E92
The reason that they call it "# known" as opposed to "# in existence" is because these values typically can't be stated with certainty. I suppose the process involves researching transaction records, contacting major dealers/collectors of that type, checking certification populations, etc, etc. Add up all of the individual instances and that becomes the calculated number known. Assembling an estimated number of pieces for currency would be made a bit easier due to each having a serial number, but that's not to say that the researcher didn't miss one, some pieces have no record, or that there is not a pile of them buried in a treasure chest somewhere. That's being generous. In my experience I have found it best to assume the opposite.
How do they know ? Because they do the research to find out how many are known. As already said, they go through all of the sales records and auction catalogs. And there are auction catalogs going back for a long time. But, it is important to realize that "known" should be read to mean - how many we know of. Meaning, there may be others, but they are unknown to us. Comments like "6 known" or whatever come from specialty books. Books on a specific series of coins or type of coins that were written by someone who did extensive research on those specific coins. Someone who read and studied all previously written books on the subject, someone who did their own primary research. Meaning they went back to the original records, correspondence, auction catalogs, newspaper ads, etc etc. Basically everything that could be found on the subject. But as time passes, new information sometimes comes to light, previously unknown examples of coins surface. And the "known" census changes. There are even examples of coins where only 3 or 4 examples were known, but Coin Talk members, through their own knowledge and ownership of the coins, increased that "known" number to 6. It happens. There was even a time when a previously unknown coin, not found in any mint records, not found in any auction records, not found in any specialty books - a completely unknown coin - was found and purchased by me. And then I found a second one, also purchased by me. And then a good friend of mine found yet a 3rd, purchased by him. All in the space of about 2 years. And all listed for the first time ever right here on Coin Talk. We also have another CT member who has been the discoverer of about 6, maybe more by now, completely new Morgan VAMS. Like I said, it happens.
One involves a Netherlands Rose Noble, the other a 1782 Hieronymus ducat off-metal strike. That should help you find them. As for the new VAMS, having a brain cramp right now and can't recall the member's name off the top of my head. Will post it when I remember.
No, starts with an N I think, Nesvit or something like that. Ashamed that I have forgotten Too many people to keep track of.
Doug is completely right that in the past people did original research to document number of items known based upon auction catalogs, sales listings, hoard reports, etc. They still do this in ancient and medieval coins. A fellow member of my coin club just had a paper published in this months Celator on persian sigloi, order of production, and how many type 1's are know. He went back 60 years into thousands of catalogs sales in his research. I find most US coin writers simply take the lazy approach today and just quote pop reports. Its sad, since pop reports are about the least reliable or informative judge of populations I can think of. I could name all of the things wrong with using them, but I think I would just bore most.
Getting back to the OP's question, the Kelly National Bank Note reference lists an approximate number of notes known by large vs. small size. On this note, my third edition (this is not the most recent version) lists this bank as having 50+ small-sized notes known, which is their way of saying that small-sized notes from this bank are common. The breakdown is not by denomination, but by size. My understanding is that Kelly or someone else who specializes in National Bank Notes has a census by serial number of many of these. New examples are discovered periodically, so the figures for the number known will be updated every so often. This specific note is a series 1929 Type 1 $20 from the California National Bank of Sacramento. As Kelly suggests, it is relatively common; Heritage Auctions has offered examples of this specific note 20 times that I can find, with sales results ranging from $65 for a F/VF note to a bit over $100 for a Choice Crisp Uncirculated example. Unfortunately, I can't make an educated guess on the condition of your note from the image, although I'm quite confident it wouldn't fall below a VG and could be substantially higher. Keep in mind that National Bank Notes were issued by banks and not cities. Five different National Banks in Sacramento issued National Bank Notes, with three of them issuing the 1929 Type 1 $20s. The issuing bank has a great deal to do with the value, and California National Bank is the most common of that group.
Super, I appreciate all the good information swhuck! Time for me to get a book, and another Sacramento National Note! :yes:
6th edition is updated to say 85 large and 173 small from bank #8504. Gives a value of $75 for a type 1 twenty dollar bill. If you find an extra I am interested! I work in Chico north of you and have been able to pick up 4 different notes from Chico, still looking for Sac and Oroville.
Tell me about it. I would love to snap up a Los Gatos note if I can ever find one. Haven't seen one in one of our auctions in the last four years or so. We do have a very cool Oakdale note in the current auction, but that's way out of my price range.
One other thing you should notice about the rarity scales as well R8 thru R-5 are listed as so many known, but once you get past R-5 it becomes number of pieces ESTIMATED. This is because we realize that by the time you are getting to R-5 the specimen count is getting "hazy" and it is difficult to actually identify 75 distinct pieces. No specialist has seen all of them, but a group can probably cross match pieces known to them, eliminate duplicates and maybe be able to track 75. But beyond that you really can't do it. You can judge how often they appear and use that to get an estimate on the number.
This is exactly what the Kelly book has done for National Notes but they have gone well beyond the 75 number. If you plug in Bank #8504 into their CD it lists the 86 large and 174 small notes by their date/type/serial number. Check the main San Francisco bank (9174) and they list 322 Large and 580 small bills. It really is an amazing project that they took on, not perfect but I would guess some of the more acurate numbers you might be able to find in the hobby.
Yeah but it is easier to definitely tell different pieces of paper money apart because of the serial numbers. When you are comparing notes on four examples of a VF large cent variety each seen by a different person at different times it can be hard to tell if you are talking about one, two, three, or four different specimens. We have to be able to notice any distinguishing marks and convey that information in a manner that others will understand exactly what we mean. Good photos really help but for a long time that wasn't possible until Bill Noyes began his condition census photo survey. He has seen and photographed almost every known R-6, 7, and 8 large cent, and most of the the top 20 or so top specimens of all the R-5 coins. And the top 10 to 15 examples of the R-1 thru R-4 coins
You will see in some of the Heritage catalog listings rosters of known coins, or sometimes rosters of known coins above a certain grade level. These serve a similar purpose, but they are necessarily not going to be as accurate as being able to track down notes by serial number. In practice, these rosters are sometimes revised as our catalogers find out more about the individual coins. Check out the current silver center cent auction for an example. We have one cataloger who has tracked down something like 200 distinct examples of the 1796-97 half dollar; I don't think you'll ever see that roster in a description, although it may show up in a book some day.
