Discounts for "cleaned" coins

I was looking at an auction lot that must be worth high XF money as an AU "cleaned" coin: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/39429/1875-CC-Twenty-Cent-Piece-PCGS-Genuine-AU-Details

All the detail is there and the cleaning looks light to me. Compare an XF @ Heritage that sold for over $900: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1160&lotNo=3549#Photo


So the question here is why all the hesitance on buying "cleaned" coins? If you kept that cleaned AU in your pocket for a while with other change it would soon be a gradeable XF45 anyway. There are collectors who refuse to buy "details" coins even though they have merits above the lower graded numerically graded coins. Am I missing something here?

 

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From the discussions I've read here, that's not necessarily true. I have the impression that the traces of cleaning stick around even after a good bit of circulation -- the phrase that sticks in my head is "looks like it was circulated, cleaned, and circulated some more".

Furthermore, although I have nothing to back this up, I've imagined that the value of a cleaned coin is roughly similar to the value of the same coin worn enough to erase most traces of the cleaning.

If this isn't true, I've got a harshly-cleaned VF details 1928-P Peace and AU details 1878-CC Morgan that may need some quality pocket time...

 

Probably there are "doctors" skilled at simulating wear enough to hide the mishandling.

 

This would almost always be the end result. Once a coin has been cleaned then many collectors won't even give it a second look. I learned my lesson by buying a Gold Indian, I sold it and I made a profit but nonetheless, lesson learned.

 

I believe it has more to do with running with the pack. I could walk into class with hightops on and people would look at me like I was crazy, but I would still be wearing a quality shoe. My worry sometimes is that people cast these coins aside and melt them, when there is actually a lot of history there. Kind of confused on this one.

 

Value In Grade?

I believe if you place the two coins side by side, although neither meets the A.N.A. VF-30 grade standard of: Liberty and scroll are complete although SLIGHTLY worn, the un-cleaned coin at least closely meets the VF-20 standard of "EVERY letter in Liberty is VISIBLE", while the cleaned coin appears of lesser quality. I can't understand an Extra Fine grade on either coin, much less AU details. Just my humble experienced opinion.

I believe the relatively greater value of the un-cleaned coin is in the grading more than an entity designating the coin "cleaned". I believe that a buyer of either coin at the prices bid/paid, would have exceeded NORMAL market worth.

If you view this linked coin relative to the 2 previously viewed, I believe most informed would find this to be more acceptable correct grading. Although a "S" mint, some might consider it a bargain: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCGS-AU-58-1875-S-Silver-Twenty-Cent-Piece-S-over-S-Variety-Almost-Unc-S-S-/270912228908?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3f13a08e2c

Happy Hunting! Rich

 

There are ranges of problem coins then. Lightly cleaned coins like this one a friend sold anyway for over $10K, Scott Travers called it a commercial unc., around MS60; Julian Leidman also thought it would grade when tried a few times: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1159&lotNo=4489

Market solution: ANACS AU58 or AU58 details.

 

I was told years ago by a coin shop owner that cleaning a coin lowers the value because most collectors like the "history" that has built up on the coin. That 1921 penny might have been held by Al Capone. That 1957 quarter might have been in Elvis Presley's hand, etc. but also the coin might get damaged a little by the cleaning.

 

The Reluctance Is "Label" Related?

If a knowledgeable collector examines many of TPG certified older coins in less than "Mint State" condition, they will realize that the coins have been cleaned, as you generally don't find century old circulated Silver coins in lustrous condition. They are purchased because they lack the "cleaned" stigma or label. I just examined a small bag of Almost Uncirculated (Mint State?) Mercury dimes, many with multiple split fasces bands, and only found 2 that had "luster" similar to that seen on TPG certified lesser quality coins I've purchased.

I found the "purists" hesitancy to be virtually non-existent if the coin is attractive, and competitively priced. I've done numerous studies in various venues, and regardless what collectors profess, they generally want a pristine appearing product. They generally will turn a "blind eye" to "dipping/cleaning" rather than purchase a mint state detail coin with natural environmental tarnish. I often hear that a buyer wants a MS60 Gold century aged coin without "bag rub", and will purchase a dipped raw coin rather than the natural state tarnished coin. Dealers will significantly discount a TPG certified mint state coin with natural dark stains. My experience is that a mildly cleaned coin often will command a net premium relative to a natural appearance coin. edited

Personally, I'll purchase a truly AU details cleaned coin at a depreciated rate, as standards for grade rejection due to cleaning varies significantly between the TPG. If "harsh" cleaning isn't evident, there's a possibility/probability that resubmission to an alternate TPG will result in a grade establishment.

A resubmission of a "cleaned" item, after an extended period of storage time in certain environments may result in an acceptable coin for grading, even when resubmitting to the original certifying TPG.

Personally, I've found value in coins that others might declare as less valuable. Many of the "tainted" label items that were purchased in the past can easily be sold at a premium in the current market. You've posted a great example of this phenomena. Value is in the eye of the beholder, and hopefully your buyer of a "tainted" item. :thumb:

 

nope- the cleaned coin is just a different thing- as different as a dime from a cent

 

I think a person's collecting philosophy is also a factor. For me, I don't care a lot about a coin's current value or future value. My primary criterion is if I like the coin either because of its design or its particular significance to me.

I enjoy collecting early commemoratives and was able to pick up a cleaned 1915 Pan-Pacific (probably my favorite design of this genre) with nice detail at a price well below what that of a corresponding "natural" coin would have cost. I had no problem doing that because I find my primary fulfillment in coin collecting in the enjoyment I get from them. Also, I've never had any difficulty imagining the "history" of a coin, even though it has been cleaned.

 

I bought an 1844 half dollar yesterday. It was even to my amateur eyes, harshly cleaned. But even so, it was cheaper than a non-cleaned G4. A G4 is $30 in the book and this was $25. I would say it is a VG-8 with details. I was happy to get it since it is my first Liberty Seated half. Can cleaning drop a coin below G4?

 

"So the question here is why all the hesitance on buying "cleaned" coins? If you kept that cleaned AU in your pocket for a while with other change it would soon be a gradeable XF45 anyway. There are collectors who refuse to buy "details" coins even though they have merits above the lower graded numerically graded coins. Am I missing something here? "

Well, coins are worth what one man will sell it for, and another will buy it for. Since alot of collectors don't like clean coins, this by default lowers their value. If someday cleaned coins become all the rage, then they'll be worth more . (although this is unlikely, because then everyone would clean their coins to raise the value). And if you bought a cleeaned AU and put it in your pocket, you would likely soon have an XF that you could still tell was cleaned at one point (cleaning leaves noticeable marks, as well as just a shiny look). Cleaning is kind of like taking a comic book out of its original plastic. It lowers the value, and thats part of the hobby.

 

Hmmm, well, I would say a good deal on a coin is what an educated buyer would pay for it. But the coin is actually worth what the average buyer would pay for it, by definition.

Another thing about cleaned coins: we WANT cleaned coins to have less value, right? Because if a cleaned coin held as much value as a naturally aged coin, then alot of folks would clean all their coins, to make them look "prettier". I myself wouldn't want to thin out the population of nice, historic, naturally aged coins like that.

 

The dealer I was at last week heavily discounts cleaned, problem coins up to 40% in some cases. It seems like a somewhat of a good deal,but I still can't bring myself to buy them. Is the coin market this discriminating in other countries as well?

 

I can't decide whether this is "begging the question" or "no true Scotsman", but I'm pretty sure it's not kosher.

Education isn't a binary quantifier ("educated" vs. "uneducated"). And even if it were, you're leaving out questions of motivation ("I just fell in love with that specimen"), profit ("I've got a customer who pays strong money for these"), and so forth.