I've researched copper coin grading in Cointalk's reference section, but this still boggles me... does the color of a cooper coin affect its grade? For example, you get a shiny new penny out of a roll and it still shows its mint luster and "copper red" color. Fast forward fifty years, and the coin has not changed at all save perhaps its color... its now a deep brown but with no other indices of non-MS state, such as scratches, chips, etc. Does that reduce the coin to something below MS? I'm considering collecting cents, but it seems like everything in a roll that is more than 5 years old is brown, not original copper red. Does this warrant trying to get red copper cents from sources other than rolls, such as mint sets, dealers, etc.?
To your first question, well, yes and no. Technically, no, color does not affect the grade, but you will not find any MS-68 browns and 67 browns are extremely rare. The biggest reason is that the process of turning brown diminishes the luster and luster is very important for high grade coins. So usually the process of turning brown will lower the grade because someting else had also changed. As for what to collect, that is strictly up to you.
As Dick said, yes color can affect the grade of coins. But not just copper coins, color can affect the grade of any coin. But that effect can be positive or it can be negative. It depends on the coin and it depends on the color. This is one area where the ANA grading guide and the PCGS grading guide - agree. edit - And Urban, there is something else you need to be sure you understand about copper coins and color. Say you find all the Red cents you want. 5 years from now all of them may be brown.
No it will still be MS It might be a lower MS according to the TPG's because of the subdued luster as mentioned above. But even if the grade does not decline the value will because the market pays more for red than for brown.
Though I agree thats how the market works, I think old copper junkies, like myself, will always choose a nice brown example over red any day. I don't see many red examples of large cents, but have been offered a few, which I turned down even though they were nice. Just not my thing. Guy
Yeah, I hear you. I have seen ancient copper cleaned so that the bare metal shows. It looks naked to me, too shiny. Even if ancient copper EXISTED uncleaned BU red, (or yellow for brass), I do not think I would collect them. I think we are just too used to the nice, mellow, pleasant colors we see everyday. I like the browns on US and world coins, and they are fine for ancients but not as cool as the hard green patinas I see in dreams.
I want to strongly echo this statement and point out that in my experience this can even be true of slabbed coins. I'm honestly afraid of red copper that carries any premium. I have an 1869 RD Two Cent Piece that I love but I'm probably going to unload soon because I'm downright paranoid about it. I've also come upon an RB Indian Cent that sat out exposed to air on top of someone's dresser for decades. Copper is a strange beast.
Paranoia is a delusion. Your 2c piece has been red for 140+ years, why will it change now unless it's been doctored or stored improperly? Lance.
Maybe, but we really don't know that for certain. We only know that is red now. Why ? Because copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals, with the exception of the modern dollar coins. We cannot stop it from toning or turning brown, we can only slow that down with proper storage. But eventually the coin is going to turn brown. Unless you can figure out some sort of airtight container to store it in.
If I'm not mistaken, the highest graded brown is 66 I believe? And rlm is right, to warrant higher grades, luster is a huge contributing factor for reaching that 67+ plateau. And to give you an idea of price differentials, according to PCGS price guide, a 1909-s VDB cent in 66 BN prices out at $4750, while a red version in the same numerical grade will go for over $13k! Proof is in the puddin'.
I'm no one special when it comes to red copper collections. But if you'd like to see images of a couple hundred red cents many decades old let me know. They may turn brown in another hundred years or more. But I'm not sure I'll live that long. Lance.
Like I said, I've got red cents that sat exposed for decades. Most people have jars in closets with similar examples. I've also got cents that turned brown in slabs. I take care to store my coins as safely as I can, but my experience with copper has been a total wildcard. Some gorgeous red coppers carry very large premiums and I'm not too interested in accepting that risk. Call it delusion if you want.
As we have discussed before Lance, I'm well aware that they exist. The question however is this - have all of those coins been "Red" from the time they were minted ? The answer is - no, they have not. That means at some point in time at least some, and perhaps many, of those older "Red" and even "Red Brown" copper coins have been dipped at some point in their life to make them, "Red" once again. I'm not saying all of them have been dipped, but it is logical and reasonable that a certain number of them have been dipped. Why ? Because of what we know to be factual. 1 - copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals. Like all coins, copper coins begin toning the instant after they are struck. But because copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals, the copper coins tone much faster than the other coins. 2 - until recent years collectors had no means or methods to prevent or even slow down the toning process. 3. - until recent years the most commonly used storage methods (depending on date ranges) for coins were paper envelopes, coin albums and folders, and before those coin cabinets. None of these methods did anything to retard or slow down toning. In fact, all of them actually induced toning and speeded it up, especially with copper coins. Now knowing these things, and they are not opinions, is it reasonable and logical to think that older copper coins exists in large numbers in "Red' and/or "Red Brown" ? No, it is not. And yes I am well aware that people claim that you cannot dip copper without it being noticeable. Well, that is simply not true. You can dip copper, and nobody will ever know or even suspect. You just have to know how to do it.
Assuming the person knows what they are doing, I would simply say its noticable the instant you take it out of the dip. The color is too bright, but that also can be "fixed" naturally. Some conditions, either natural or contrived, have the affect of forming a more permanent, pleasant, stable red onto either freshly minted or freshly dipped copper surfaces. As usual I agree with you Doug and hope many take your warnings to heart. If a copper coin has nice, original surfaces, I have seen a stable red or red/brown color "restored". Like many things, it depends on the coin to start with, as many are not conducive for this.
Yes Chris I agree, that if not done properly, immediately after being dipped a copper coin has an unnatural color. But even then, natural color will be begin to return almost immediately. But if copper is dipped properly then the effect of unnatural color is greatly reduced and sometimes totally eliminated. It not only can be done - it IS done.
Doug, if the coin has been "properly" dipped is the restored red color subject to the same degration that the freshly minted one was? Put another way, is the dipped copper likely to remain red longer or indefinately or will it just start the oxydation process once again? I am not being facetious; I was not aware of a copper dip that did what you describe.
Yes, the dipped copper will start toning again immediately. This is a little experiment I did for different reasons. This is a copper coin immediately after being dipped in Tarn-X - This is the very same coin just 3 days later - The area to the right around the date was also rubbed with a pencil eraser, that's why it did not tone the same. And no, Tarn-X is not what you would use if you were trying to turn a copper coin red again. But even when using something that harsh, you can still see what happens and how fast it happens. Now imagine if you did it the right way. And then you stored the coin properly to maintain the red color. It really is not difficult for people with knowledge. This the coin after 43 days -
