Something that has been bothering me

So I went to a local show Sunday. Got there late, just looking around and not expecting to buy anything, but had money in my pocket just in case. I get to a guy's table. He has a bunch of the copper ounce bullion pieces, a few worn coins in the case, and then some better coins at the bottom. I start looking closer at the better coins and something doesn't strike me as right. They were all high quality fakes from China. The seller freely admitted they were all fakes. Some were well done, with a couple of small defects in the rim, toning, etc. I looked over a few, (a pretty good 1916 SL quarter), and he said they were $50 each, or 3/$100. I looked and could not see any COPY stamps on them. I asked him, "I don't mean to be a jerk, but why don't these have the COPY mark as required by law?". He gave me a story about PEGS, how the owner of that firm called the Secret Service when he got fakes to slab, the Secret Service said they would not do anything, yada yada, they were all over the country so why bother to mark any of them.

Of course I would never buy anything from that dealer ever, but is there more I should have done? Is there any way of reporting these coins to someone? Should I talk to the show sponsor? It really upsets me to see dealers at a show openly selling counterfeits and violating our Hobby Protection Act. If our own dealers will not comply with this law that collectors ask to be passed, then why should anyone ever comply with it?

I am leaning towards approaching the show organizer since having this dealer in his show seriously taints the entire show in my eyes. I was wondering what your guys opinions were.

Chris

 

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Since the dealer openly admitted that they are counterfeit, he has broken no law. Even though the (US) law requires that counterfeit coins have the word "COPY" on them, there is no way our law can be enforced in other countries, and if I understand correctly, it is not illegal to import them, either, as long as there is no intent to defraud.

Perhaps the Hobby Protection Act should be amended to include "the importation of any counterfeit coin not appropriately marked".

Chris, too!

 

Here's a paragraph copied directly from the law.
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the
United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of
any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently
marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or
practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15
U.S.C. 41 et seq.].
The way I read this the dealer is breaking the law, plain and simple.

 

Not if he wasn't making or importing them himself?

 

Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. §§ 41-58, as amended)Under this Act, the Commission is empowered, among other things, to (a) prevent unfair methods of competition, and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce; (b) seek monetary redress and other relief for conduct injurious to consumers; (c) prescribe trade regulation rules defining with specificity acts or practices that are unfair or deceptive, and establishing requirements designed to prevent such acts or practices; (d) conduct investigations relating to the organization, business, practices, and management of entities engaged in commerce; and (e) make reports and legislative recommendations to Congress.



This is the beginning of the FTC Act of empowerment. The key phrase in this is "practices that are unfair or deceptive". There is nothing unfair or deceptive about someone admitting that the item for sale is a counterfeit. Now, if the buyer should attempt to pass it as genuine, that is another story.Chris

 

I would go further than you guys, by saying "importing in the US" would include the entire chain of people, including the dealer. What good would the law be otherwise, if you can just buy the fakes the second they come off the boat and be free and clear?

Regardless, would I be out of line telling the show organizer about it? I seriously would never buy or sell at a show that allows open sales of forgeries that aren't permanently marked as such.

Chris

 

i don't think you would be out of line. you should say something to the organizer.

 

He's distributing them buy offering them for sale. Even though he admitted they're counterfeits, they are still required to be marked according to the HPA.

 

I would talk to the organizer if it bothers you.

 

Did he have a sign stating they were fakes or did he only admit to it when you told him that you knew they were fakes? Perhaps he is counting on people NOT asking if they are real or fake.

 

If the guy is selling unmarked quality fakes and it bothers you, then I recommend you inform the show organizer. If it really bothers you, then inform the show organizer in writing.

If he is representing them as genuine coins, then report his actions to everyone.

 

But that is the rub, right? How do I know he is not? When I called him out on them, saying they looked wrong, he said "yeah they are fakes I sell". However, there was absolutely no prices, notives they were fakes on the 2x2's or on his case stating that. I simply do not know if he is passing these off as real or not. Its kind of WHY the law was passed to begin with.

 

It is kind of like the people peddling fake designer glasses, handbags and so forth at flea markets. Do they get nailed by the authorities? I wish they did, possibly in high population areas like Florida or New York. If the seller has a license for tax or other purposes, it could get yanked by the relevant authority.

I have emailed show organizers about an unethical dealer--the most they will do is relay the message. Unlikely an unscrupulous dealer will get ousted. Look at the Coin World advertisers who ripped off customers for years, I myself lost over $3500 from one without recourse. Finally, Paul Sims and Coast to Coast etc, started selling certified coins to survive. They should have gotten sued back to the stone ages.

 

I have never dealt with Paul Sims or Coast to Coast, so I can't comment on their business ethics or lack thereof.
But I can say that based on their ads and similar ones in CW, I would just avoid them altogether.
Which isn't to say that all dealers who advertise heavily in CW are crooks.
MCM has been taking a beating recently in CW and I can say my own experience with them was a positive one.
Likewise L&C Coins is a very heavy advertiser and I won an eBay auction of theirs. Sent the coin back and got a replacement with no problems at all. Plus they send me a catalog every several weeks, which I admit has some high priced common stuff that I wouldn't buy at the prices offered but makes great bathroom reading!

 

What a greedy pile of crap. You can get fakes from china for $2-$5 each. Although what he did is wrong, $50 for a fake is ridiculous.

 

It is what it is, unfortunately people will do whatever they can to make a quick buck.

 

IDK. I do know they were better fakes than the common pot metal stuff. Die struck, aged, and a few light nicks and scratches here and there to make a person think it was real. In fact, I would have not looked at the SL type 1 as much as I did, then start noticing differences, if it had been a 17 instead of a 16. Unless you had a real one and a decent loupe right next to it, I bet the majority of collectors would have been fooled if it were a 1917 dated piece.

 

Whether he admits to the coins as counterfeit when selling or not. There is always the potential that one of his coins would be out there floating around as genuine. Just because he told the buyer its counterfeit doesn't make it right. Lets say the person forgets years down the road there is always the possibility that coin is considered questionable. Not only would I not buy anything from him I would not buy anything from that show. What if he sold some of his counterfeit coins to other dealers who failed to notice they were counterfeit? And I would also let the organizer about this.

 

Well based upon some feedback here, and my own personal opinion, I called the organizer and let him know. I told him it taints the whole show for me knowing unmarked fakes are actively being sold there. He understood, and said he was concerned. I will go there next month and see if anything has changed. If not, I will let the organizer know about it, and a few dealers I know who I have bought from and attend it about why I will no longer be attending that show.

Hopefully something will be changed.