SMS Coins

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by pumpkinpie, Mar 4, 2012.

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  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Then laugh again, AFTER you look at the links.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 4, 2012
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. Caleb

    Caleb Active Member

    Maybe you need to take your own advice and look at the links:devil:

    From day one, NGC has known that these are not SMS "Special Mint Set" coins and have classified them as "Specimen".

    Thanks for the second laugh!:rolleyes:
     
    Caleb, Mar 4, 2012
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    EDIT: Sorry, wrong thread!
     
    yakpoo, Mar 4, 2012
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I thought it was the same thing?
     
    ldhair, Mar 4, 2012
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Hardly, rather it was NGC using the SP designation to label them as SMS coins exactly like PCGS did with many of the '65, '66 and '67 SMS coins. (see below) I suppose PCGS knew those weren't SMS coins :rolleyes:



    You might also want to read the description -

    Rare SMS MS69 1964 Kennedy Half

    1964 50C MS69 Specimen NGC. The 1964 Special Mint Sets that started appearing at auction some ten years ago have an interesting texture. They don't have the deep prooflike (almost proof) quality of the 1967 SMS coins. They are more similar to the 1965 SMS pieces, but lack the reflectivity seen even on those pieces. Speculation is that some 50 sets were produced, many of which have been broken up in the last ten years.
     

    Attached Files:

    GDJMSP, Mar 5, 2012
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. wvcoal

    wvcoal New Member

    There are also 2009 Lincoln cents labeled SMS bronze from NGC in P, D, and S mints

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
     
    wvcoal, Mar 5, 2012
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    It is Larry, but apparently he is too busy laughing to realize that.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 5, 2012
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. Caleb

    Caleb Active Member






    I have laughed enough. SP and SMS do not mean the same. SP doesn’t even mean the same thing at PCGS as it does to NGC.

    SMS stands for “Special Mint Set” which was produced in 1966 – 1967 (All 1965 SMS were produced in 1966).

    SP at PCGS stands for “Special Strikes” which they use now for several different types of coins minted in the United States (i.e. 1998-S Mattie Kennedy half dollar, all modern coins coming from Satin Finish mint sets, coins from the 1965 – 1967 Special Mint Sets, even the 1994 and 1997 Jefferson nickels that were in the collectors commemorative sets for those years).

    SP at NGC stands for “Specimen”, and they use it for coins like the 2000 Cherrio Sac dollar.

    Thanks for the third laugh.

    Here ends the lesson.

    PS. Read the description of the Auction house? Why? They are in business to hype the coin in the best possible light trying to get the suckers to part with their money. I would rather deal in facts.
     
    Caleb, Mar 5, 2012
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. jello

    jello Not Expert★NormL®

    My 2cents

    :thumb:Pcgs uses MS+ SP and SMS also Ngc.
    all 3 were graded 1995 thur 1999.
    there has been a lot of change by both TPG's

    . 1965 MS-66 Cameo KD.jpg 1966 MS-66 Cameo DDO KD.jpg 1967 SMS MS-67 Cameo.jpg
     
    jello, Mar 5, 2012
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator



    Uh, no. It doesn't. It stands for the same thing that it stands for at NGC, Specimen Strike. But you don't have to believe me, you can look for yourself.

    SP[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Short for Specimen Strike.[/FONT]


    Or you can look on the PCGS web site -     http://www.pcgs.com/Lingo/S


    You're sure you're done with the lesson ?

    So if that's what PCGS does, then what's this ?

    65 SMS MS.jpg


    And what's this one ?

    66 SMS MS.jpg


    Apparently PCGS doesn't know their own designations. At least, not as you know them. I can find a lot more examples in all denominations in all denominations if you want. Some will be designated MS and some will be designated SP - if you're still not done with the lesson that is. Funny thing is though, they will all also have the SMS designation right there on the slab on both kinds.



    Ahhhh good, I like facts. Of course it usually helps to get them straight. And if you check the NGC web site you'll find this page - http://www.ngccoin.com/NGCCoinExplorer/CoinDetail.aspx?UCID=27WH

    N    ow what do you suppose those 1964 Kennedy half dollars that are designated as SP actually are if they are not '64 SMS coins ? They aren't MS, they aren't PF. No, that SP is the designation that NGC assigs to the supposedly 1964 SMS coins. NGC has only graded 6 of them. You see they have the same page for the other denominations too, like cents - http://www.ngccoin.com/NGCCoinExplorer/CoinDetail.aspx?UCID=22LT , they've graded 11 of those, and quarters - http://www.ngccoin.com/NGCCoinExplorer/CoinDetail.aspx?UCID=27J8 , they've only graded 1 of those.

    So if these are not the supposedly 1964 SMS coins, then what are they ? What other reason would NGC have for assigning the SP designation ? Was there some special Specimen set minted in 1964 that you know of ?

    No, I submit to you that if you want to get your "facts" straight that the 1964 coins that NGC designates as SP are the very same 1964 coins that PCGS has designated as SMS. And that is why the auction description lists them as such.

    Of course you can write to David Lange and ask him if you want. But I already know what he'll tell you. He'll tell you exactly what I have said.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 5, 2012
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. Caleb

    Caleb Active Member




    OK GDJMSP, I will open school up for one more day for you. Please try to keep up, I realize that some of this might be over your head but please focus. I will try to go slow so that even you can understand. My dad has always told me never to get into arguments with old men and fools so I will not argue with you.

    You have stated several points which are erroneous at best. :rolleyes:

    PCGS knows their own designations that they use for coins, it is a shame that you haven’t figured it out yet! One more time, on coins from Special Mint Set(s) “SP” stands for “Special Strikes”. I’m not sure how much more clearer this can be stated.

    The SP or Specimen you sited from the PCGS “Glossary” page has been there for many years. Maybe you should read what “Specimen” means, I will quote it here for you:
    I hope you are not trying to say that the Special Mint Sets were produced between the years 1792 – 1816?

    In July 2009 PCGS changed the way they designated coins from Special Mint Set(s) from MS to SP. Coins graded prior to July received the MS designation, after got the SP designation. The photos you posted only means that they were graded before the change (I hope you can now understand that).

    If you wanted to know what the new designation at PCGS stood for, maybe you should have asked PCGS yourself, we did. When PCGS made the change from MS to SP, my dad had an order in at PCGS and below are the email from him to the grader’s supervisor at PCGS who clearly states that SP will stand for “Special Strikes”. I hope your reading comprehension can fathom this:

    It is obvious that your knowledge in this area of the hobby is “lacking” to say the least.

    There is no need for me to ask Mr. David Lange why NGC labeled the coin in question, 1964 Specimen. I could explain the reasoning to you but I would be wasting my time, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

    There were no Special Mint Set(s) produced by the US Mint in 1964, they do not exist. It all started as hype is a Stack’s catalog in 1993 and PCGS mis attributing them in 1996 without any bases for merit. I could elaborate on this point further but there is no need to continuously type over your head. Maybe seeing would be believing, I draw your attention to any 1965 Special Mint sets, look at the printed card inside from the Director of the US Mint, you will clearly see that the card states that these coins (the one’s included within the 1965 Special Mint Sets) are the first.
    [​IMG]
    Here ends your finial lesson, school is out:devil:
     
    Caleb, Mar 5, 2012
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    :stormy:
     
    yakpoo, Mar 5, 2012
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. redwin117

    redwin117 Junior Member

    (SP stands for "Special Strike" and yes the label will read out SMS or Satin Finish as well. )

    SPECIAL STRIKE! SP :D:p
     
    redwin117, Mar 5, 2012
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. wvcoal

    wvcoal New Member

    what does the SMS stand for on these?
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
     
    wvcoal, Mar 5, 2012
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. jello

    jello Not Expert★NormL®

    :thumb:Doug /GDJMSP great write up!!!
     
    jello, Mar 6, 2012
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. Caleb

    Caleb Active Member

    It was an outstanding write up, as long as you like fiction!:rolleyes:
     
    Caleb, Mar 6, 2012
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    "Special Mint Set"
     
    19Lyds, Mar 6, 2012
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. rodeoclown

    rodeoclown Dodging Bulls

    You guys are all wrong.

    SMS = Super Machoman Savage
    SP = Slippery Pickle

    :yes:
     
    rodeoclown, Mar 6, 2012
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Uhhh no,Caleb. It wasn't fiction, it is all quite true. And yes I am well aware that PCGS changed their labeling designation and that that is why there are SMS coins in both types of slabs. The point I was trying to get across to you is that PCGS used the SP to mean the same thing that NGC uses it for - Specimen Strike. And I presented evidence to that effect found on PCGS's own web site.

    Now you choose to claim that evidence is wrong because of the emails you have. Well, by the same token I can choose to claim that what your emails say is wrong because of the evidence I presented. But in reality it doesn't matter. Special Strike or Specimen Strike, they both refer to the same thing - the SMS coins - the two terms are synonymous.

    The entire point of this discussion comes down to one thing, and you have chosen to ignore that thing. The point being, that NGC, just like PCGS, has designated certain coins dated 1964 as being different from other coins of the same date. Yes, the claim made by the TPGs is that the coins are SMS coins. You say that that is myth and hype. I have never claimed that it isn't myth and hype. All I have ever said is that we don't know if it is or if it isn't.

    PCGS claims the coins are 1964 SMS coins. That is undeniable. NGC has also designated a few 1964 coins as being special, different than the regular coins of the same date. That is also undeniable. And that is the the thing that you have ignored.

    You said -

    So I will ask you one last time, if the 1964 coins that NGC has designated SP are not the same coins that PCGS claims are SMS coins, then what exactly are they ?

    That one sentence is what this entire discussion is about. So answer the question.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 6, 2012
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. jello

    jello Not Expert★NormL®

    Anyone just go to @
    www.pcgs.com

    Read the word
    or
    Watch YouTube feed about PCGS.
     
    jello, Mar 6, 2012
    #40 + Quote Reply
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