ICG-slabbed "clash" determined to be a squeeze job

I'm sure everyone remembers this interminable thread:

http://www.cointalk.com/t196652/

To my surprise, Rascal actually sent it to die variety expert BJ Neff. BJ has conclusively determined that this ICG-slabbed coin is a squeeze job. In addition to showing the Memorial pressed into Lincoln's face, BJ also notes the presence of damage to the design rim and the date from the raised design elements on the face of the coin that was pressed into Rascal's coin.

 

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Just as we suspected.

Thanks for the update Mike!

 

Why that little rascal.....

 

So THAT'S​ why he's been silent for so long!

 

Thanks for the update, Mike!:thumb:


I think it's going to be awfully quiet around here now.

 

:yes:

 

He's out $15.00! http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=260897421640&nma=true&rt=nc&si=2w0AhQ0mxsjbc%252FDMcbeE6eATTsI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_720wt_1270

 

Just curious, how would an expert know if it was a die clash or a squeeze job? Both ways apply a lot of pressure to one coin pushing onto another coin.

 

Well, grasshopper..... study is the key. There is a difference between squeeze jobs/vise jobs/hammer jobs and die clashes and knowing the minting process and how errors are produced will identify real from faked.

 

Clash marks do not involve "one coin pushing onto another coin". It's about one die smacking into another die.

 

Where is he to tell those that had commented that it was a squeeze job, that it was a waste of $15, that he argued with those that had more knowledge and nicely explained he was wrong (as the OP did), that he was wrong? Admittedly, I've not always been right, but when I'm wrong, I always offer up the apology. The way that thread fell apart, to the point of getting locked, and how offensive he got with those that simply disagreed with him....me being one of them.... I'd think he should at least 'man up', and realize that even the 'experts' (though, I don't put much stock in that particular TPG service, and hardly consider them 'experts') can be wrong, and just offer up an apology to those he denigrated. Not trying to start a war, as he and I came to terms and drew up a 'peace treaty' (as it was getting to be knock-down, drag out), but he was rather harsh in his stance that he was right and EVERYONE was wrong.

 

Also, what kind of guarantee does ICG have?? Will the owner just have to 'eat' a mis-attributed coin like this? I supposed you can't even call it mis-attributed. They holdered a damaged coin and graded it it a'major' die clash. Does the owner have to just 'suck it up' and eat the loss on a damaged, but graded coin? Other TPG's have a guarantee, but does ICG? And can you imagine how much further down the ladder this puts ICG?

IMO, this fiasco puts them just slightly above par with 'basement' self slabbers, such as SGS. This won't help their submissions grow, thats for sure, at least as far as 'errors' go....especially where ICG claimed it to be a MAJOR die clash.

Words to be taken wisely!


edited to add....I WILL give credit to rascal for sending it off to have an expert look at it (even though an expert called it way early on..the OP). Perhaps he thought twice about it after having everyone disagreeing with ICG's determination, as well as his.

 

I wouldn't necessarily be harder on ICG than some of the other services. I've found squeeze jobs in some top-tier slabs and every service occasionally slabs obvious fakes. That's been my experience, at any rate. Of course, there's no excuse for even one such fake slipping through.

 

I don't believe it............ not that it was found to be a fake but that Rascal actually sent it in.
As a coincidence I found this one the other day, here's a real one for you to see Rascal.
:smile

 

Looks like this is going to be more than just a passing comment, seeing how d.t. menace found one....but we might get the argument that DTM's is also a squeeze job!!! I wonder if there will be ANY clashes that WON'T be considered a squeeze job now.

DTM, just don't send it to ICG, they'll call it a squeeze job and bodybag it for being nothing more than a damaged coin!!! LOL

 

What the heck ? Does everyone think Mike Diamond is some kind of a coin God and can do no wrong and believes every word he says? I knew BJ would side with Mike before I let him see the coin because BJ will agree with about anything Mike says. This is the way it has always been. I see here that Mike is coming out and saying flat out BJ called my coin a SQUEEZE JOB and nothing else, this is just not true and I have the letter to prove it. BJ said he did feel the coin is what they call a SQUEEZE JOB or SOMETHING of a SIMILAR NATURE. also the M and E of AMERICA does not touch the date. the M in this area near the date is not visible and the E is to the right side of the 8 in the date and I can not see any evidence of any letter damaging the rim on the coin..



what the heck is wrong with you Mike? here is your last post on the Coneca forum stating this would be your only comment on my coin and now here you are starting a new thread about it. I just don't don't see the need for this.

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diamond

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,653

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[HR][/HR]It's an obvious squeeze job. The incuse design elements cross Lincoln's face, which is not possible considering how high the relief is in this area. You'll also note that some of the incuse elements invade the design rim, which is also not possible in a clash. All other sources of incuse, mirror-image design elements (e.g., brockage, flipped over dropped filling) are also inadmissable. ICG got it hysterically wrong. This will be my only comment on this vandalized coin.

-- Mike Diamond ]]

I don't know whether to believe someone or not on anything when they do things like this. Mike you and me and everyone else can make a mistake from time to time. Just like that time I sent you that 2005 Minnesota DDR #1 state quarter and you referred to it as a die chip and sent it back to me. thanks to Potter , Wexler , and a few others plus me finally found out what it was and where the extra tree came from on the die. I could have spent those coins and I had over a hundred of them but I hung in there with them and now I'm thankful I kept them. this showed me that if you have a strong feeling about something to hang in there and stick to your belief..

here is another paragraph BJ wrote about this coin.

Bj wrote; Normally a clashing of the dies is caught by the press operator.When it does occur ,the coin press is shut down and the dies and inspected for damage.if the obverse die is damaged to bad , it will be abraided to remove the clash marks and then put back into service .more often though ,, the obverse die is retired after a die clash,expessialy one of this magnitude.I find it odd that reverse die did not show even a hint of this die clash.Was it changed out ? it may have been ... but why did they not change the obverse die as well ? this is a inconsistency , but it may have happened .


This is my coin and I do not see why anyone else should worry about it . If anyone loses any money on this coin it will be me and money is no object to me. I can do whatever I want to with it and it will not hurt anyone. Like I told all of you many times this may be something other than a clashed die and you folks got hung up on a clashed die. if this coin was a squeeze or hammer job coin it would be out off round and larger in diameter and the reverse side should show at least a tiny bit of damage.

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Anyone have any popcorn?

 

Another can o' worms opened!

 

You might need a few cold ones to go with the popcorn before this show ends. No one wants it to end. LOL

 

Hey, Rascal. I offered you a C-note to have that coin authenticated, but heard nothing more from you.
I stand with Mike on this one. Your credibility is shot, buddy, ​SHOT! Kaput! History! Destroyed! In the can! Down the tubes! In the crapper!

Oh, how the mighty fall.