Nomination for worst PF68 ever slabbed...

The problem is that with high grades like PF68, the coin's perceived value, especially if it an older one, can be multiples above a similar coin that is just a few notches lower in assigned grade.

To a lot of collectors, D'Artagnan's sword going through Ferdinand's beard takes the coin out of the "high grade" category.

 

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Agree 100% --since the grade and value are so tightly linked (more so than they ought to be, I do agree with moneyer12 on that) the grade really does become an important criteria. In this particular case, the seller wants $950 for a coin that arguably is only worth $425 at the very most. The MS65 a few posts back sold for $517 a few months ago (including buyers premium). In as far as the coin be attractive, well I guess we all have our own tastes. I'd probably spray it with Windex and rinse off most of the fog if it were my coin.

 

Yeah, just gets back to the whole "buy the coin and not the slab", which most collectors and dealers ignore. I completely agree with Moneyer's thoughts. I would like having a coin like that in my collection, but with the slab around it, grade controversy, etc I would just pass.

Ancient collectors have seen this whole debacle, and then to add insult to injury they use modern grades and definitions of grades on our coins. This is why most experienced ancient collectors basically wage holy war against any plastic. So far we are winning I believe, but there is a LOT of money pushing slabbing. All we can do is not reward a coin for being slabbed, in fact I bid $10 less for a slabbed coin for my fee to bandsaw it.

 

I can see where ancients would be even more problematic than modern coinage when it comes to TPG. Add in patina, and any number of other grading criteria and its pretty hard to agree on any kind of concensus as to a coins condition except for the very most pristine examples. Never the less, one of the reasons I have always resisted collecting ancients stems from my own inability to authenticate them. I can hold my own on modern stuff (17th century on) but have never felt confident authenticating the ancient or medevil stuff. I would think that some in the ancient collector community would seek TPG coins simply for the authentication aspect of it.

 

Authenticating ancients is just like authenticating any series sir. Its a function of handling and seeing thousands of authentic coins and really your eye will scream fake long before your mind will know why. Just like modern coinage. I started in modern US, (mostly 19th century), before moving to ancient and medieval. There are different things to look for, to be sure, but the process is similar.

I am just saying its very doable sir have you the notion to try someday.

Chris

 

In my own case, I suspect some of the hesitation comes from seeing photographs in hobby related publications with captions like "An obvious forgery", yet when I look at the photo, my first reaction is "obvious to who?".

 

over here in the uk slabbed coins are very rarely seen at auction, we tend to look at the coins mintage and general appearance rather than pay over the odds for someone else to "grade and slab" our coins we learn to become proficient in grading our own coins. among the thousands of coins in my collection not a single one is in a plastic coffin, i would never buy one and certainly would not pay some third party to do it for me.

 

And you sir are my kind of collector. Sadly I am very much a dying breed here in the colonies. I talk and talk to beginning ancient collectors but many would rather have the hand holding of plastic than educate themselves.

 

Moneyer and Chris, count me in. I don't care at all for them slabs, but was given one by a fellow CT Member, so I shall keep it. I do prefer raw circulated coins because I have the ability to hold them with no worries of ruining them.

 

I've always thought Collector's Universe owning and operating both David Hall Rare Coins (along with a number of other coin related sales venue) in addition to PCGS was a rather gross conflict of interest. If it looks like a conflict of interest, why then it probably IS a conflict of interest. And no, I don't think my saying so is "an outrageous assault on the integrity of David Hall, a man who has done more for the hobby than any living human being" --I hear that crap all the time from dealers who think the arrangement is perfectly acceptable. It isn't and never will be.

 

i would doubt that very much, to say that one person has done more for coin collecting as a hobby is truly absurd. every collector has done something for our hobby since time imemorial so to single out one person who is hardly known outside the US is quite wide of the mark.

 

Very true, he's just another player among many in the hobby. My point being that many dealers act as if David Hall were some sort of larger than life diety or supreme being just because he introduced the world to slabs. It's not a view I share, but rather one many dealers use to dismiss any questions about what appears to be an obvious conflict of interest in the ownership arrangement of PCGS.

 

The problem is, there are LOTS of fake ancients floating around. Furthermore, most collectors, especially novice collectors, don't have either the opportunity or the luxury of handling thousands of ancient coins in order to get a feel for their authenticity or lack thereof.

 

I got "up to speed" by going to an ancient show, and buying a couple of books with ancients. Then I bought some coins from good dealers who ensure they don't sell any fakes. If you wish to buy just a few ancients, there are hundreds of dealers all with lifetime guarantee of authenticity. With the flood of chinese made fake US coins, I would say the same thing to US collectors today. If you do not know exactly what you are doing, a good dealer lets you buy unslabbed coins. Same with ancients. I will grant you the slab for ancients is helpful if you are buying from Ebay and you have no idea what you are doing, but not necessary and a big expense if you either buy from good dealers or educate yourself.

I find a lot fewer ancient fakes out there versus US fakes nowadays. Yes, 90% of Chinese material out there is fake today, but I do not see a lot of other ancient fakes percentage wise. There are two or three sellers on Ebay of cast fakes I have been trying to get kicked off there, but again if you see the coin in hand its easy enough to tell if someone has handled a few of these.

You do have a point about newer collectors though, I grant you that. IF TPG used ancient grades and grading standards, I would have much less heartburn. I might even allow some to stay in slabs that I buy. Its the brazen affront of changing our entire grading system that really causes me to wage jihad on them. They simply have no right, and as long as I collect ancients I will bandsaw any erroneously graded slabs I buy.

 

I wouldn't call the haze heavy. It appears to be light on the obverse and light-to-medium on the reverse. Given that the coin is graded DCAM and the TPG resist giving the DCAM designation to coins with haze obscuring the frosted devices, I assume it did haze up in the holder. The "shish-ka-bob skewer going through the guy's beard" is nothing more than a break in the haze. It's not surface damage. No different than a streak in the toning. Most likely there was something on the surfaces (light oils for handling it) that caused the haze not to appear there.

I also doubt that NEN would put this coin in their inventory if it were that grossly overgraded. If it's there, I'll take a look at the coin at the Long Beach show this weekend.