US gold coins

I was going through a dealers website and saw 19th century gold US coins being offered as bullion (even certified coins). This seemed very strange to me. What is the sense for a dealer to do this? I would think a 19th century gold coin would be sold as much for its historic and artistic value as to what it is made of.

 

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Depends on year and grade. There are many 19th gold coins that trade slightly over bullion because of mintage numbers or lack of popularity. BUT, if they are selling NGC graded MS-63's at 10% over bullion, go to the bank tomorrow and borrow every dollar you can get your hands to buy them.

 

Possibly the gold value has exceeded the numismatic value over the years?

 

Looking at gold coins as bullion is interesting. I do not agree with it though. So far my collecting has been either non-gold coins or exonumia. I have no problems with buying a medal that looks a bit battered because some are very rare. Rather I tend to think about the rarity and the artistic quality long before about the metal content. Having a medal in silver is a plus but not a necessity.

 

Premiums for generic gold coins (even uncirculated slabbed ones) are always changing. Right now they are low, that can and does change. Afterall these. Coins are not rare. Back when gold was around $800, twenty dollar libertys were around $1050 - $250 premium. Now with gold at $1650, the same coin is $1850 - $200 premium. When generics were hot, when goldwas around $1100, the premium was huge - around $600. In general though, as the price of gold goes higher the "collector" premium shrinks.

 

I have been wanting to buy a civil war era gold princess head dollar. On Ebay, I have seen the prices go all over the place for this coin. What should I be paying for this coin?

 

Close.

More accurately, the bullion value has overwhelmed the collector premium, with "collector premium" meaning the coin's price minus it's melt value.

Today, generic gold collector premium is small compared to bullion value. The numismatic premium didn't change much while bullion shot throught the roof, so premium expressed as percent is small.

For that reason, 19th century US "low gold" is readily available and acts like bullion i.e. when bullion swings 10%, low gold swings 10%.

Nice slabbed MS63 coins swing much slower and don't respond to bullion swings as much as AU coins.

 

It depends on date, mint, and grade. In general, these coins are readily available. Personally, I like 'em.

 

This is all very reasonable.

Yes, it's true... as the price of gold goes higher the collector premium shrinks. It also shrinks as the denomination gets bigger; gold $20s sell closer to melt than gold dollars.

 

A lot would depend, in addition to what the others have stated about year and mint, on what the dealer bought them for.

For all you know, the dealer may have paid considerably less than melt for them.

 

Doug, where do you see 18th century gold in MS-63 selling for spot?

 

Did you mean "down" here? My impression is that, in general, the higher PM prices go, the smaller the numismatic premium becomes (at least in proportion, and sometimes in absolute terms).

 

oops, here too. Meant 19th century.

I have not seen graded MS-63 gold coins from 19th century selling near melt. Could you give a couple of examples of what years and denominations to look for?

 

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: bold ten-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"]Jewelry[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"]VF[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"]XF[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"]A[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"]B[/TD]
[TD="width: 14%, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$1 TYPE 1

[TD="align: center"]175/210[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]190/225[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]200/235[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]215/250[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$1 TYPE 3

[TD="align: center"]215/250[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]225/265[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]240/275[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]265/300[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$2.5 LIBERTY

[TD="align: center"]265/300[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]280/315[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]290/325[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]310/345[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$2.5 INDIAN

[TD="align: center"]235/270[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]250/285[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]260/295[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]280/315[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$3 GOLD

[TD="align: center"]0/0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0/0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0/0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0/0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$5 LIBERTY

[TD="align: center"]393/428[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]401/436[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]412/447[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]428/462[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$5 INDIAN

[TD="align: center"]395/423[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]408/443[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]422/457[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]437/472[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$10 LIBERTY

[TD="align: center"]810/845[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]817/852[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]836/871[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]846/881[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$10 INDIAN

[TD="align: center"]818/853[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]825/860[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]845/880[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]856/891[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$20 LIBERTY **

[TD="align: center"]1,635/1,695[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,650/1,710[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,680/1,740[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,695/1,755[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$20 SAINT **

[TD="align: center"]1,640/1,700[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,655/1,715[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,685/1,745[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,700/1,760[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[/TR]

[TD="class: white ten-point-font, bgcolor: #505050, colspan: 7, align: center"] SELL INDICATIONS FOR NGC CERTIFIED GOLD UNLESS INDICATED [/TD]
[TR="class: bold ten-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
[TD="align: center"] [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]62[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]63[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]64[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]65[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]66[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$1 TYPE 1
[TD="align: center"]565[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]625[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]860[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,310[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4,000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$1 TYPE 2
[TD="align: center"]1,735[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,975[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6,850[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11,900[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$1 TYPE 3
[TD="align: center"]480[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]580[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]625[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]905[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,800[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$2.5 LIBERTY
[TD="align: center"]475[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]480[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]595[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]860[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,475[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$2.5 INDIAN
[TD="align: center"]355[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]450[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]850[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,460[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,325[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$3 GOLD
[TD="align: center"]2,320[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,950[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4,550[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7,000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$5 LIBERTY
[TD="align: center"]505[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]520[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]710[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,170[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,450[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$5 INDIAN
[TD="align: center"]530[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]725[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,820[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3,160[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9,400[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$10 LIBERTY
[TD="align: center"]900[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]910[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,250[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,695[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3,500[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$10 INDIAN
[TD="align: center"]920[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]940[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,265[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,975[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3,350[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$20 LIBERTY **
[TD="align: center"]1,770[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,775[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,870[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,150[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3,625[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$20 SAINT ** NM
[TD="align: center"]1,770[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,780[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,815[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,865[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,060[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,760[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: nine-point-font, bgcolor: #ffffff"]
$20 SAINT **
[TD="align: center"]1,770[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,780[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,815[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1,865[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,060[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2,760[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



It depends on who is selling them. With Heritage MS63 gold is usually a 10% premium at least over gold melt price. Add on quite a bit for PQ examples or the retailers.

 

Thanks Owel, that's alot closer than I would have thought. I guess the real pop comes at MS64.

 

I'm not sure if this helps anyone, but I just bought this common beat up ms61 1904 $20 for $1,800 this morning.

gold rose $44 by the end of the day. gold ended up at $1710. the Melt Value: is $1654.43 because the AGW: is 0.9675oz .thats a $145 premium.
and I don't think it's that great of a deal. I just wanted it.


[h=2]Coin Specifications[/h]

Category: Liberty Head $20 (1850-1907)

Mint: Philadelphia

Mintage: 6,256,797

Catalog: KM-74.3

Composition: Gold

Fineness: 0.9000

Weight: 33.4360g

AGW: 0.9675oz

Melt Value: $1654.43 (1/26/2012)

 

I have to disagree with that. try to find a gold half eagle or eagle, libby or indian in ms63 without a good premium. the ms61-62s bring a small premium but the 63s sell for a good bit over spot. the common saints not so much.