Kicked off the eBay boards AGAIN (this time, 30 days) c/o SGS "graded" coins!!

You're right-it is. And if the idea of alerting others against the scam your running isn't friendly then here's a link to a site that'll help you with the word 'friendly'
www.dictionary.com

The point of sending this complaint was not to only get you-it was to see if eBay would do anything about the problem (SGS and the sellers who deceive others)-which obviously they haven't. Bill said if this happened then he was going to his local papers. And since he has connections with CoinWorld magazine, hopefully you'll see an article or two appear in the near future. If this was not your purpose in the complaint to eBay Bill-please let me know.
Bill

 

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Steve, this is a friendly board, except to those who would cheat others, much like yourself. You are a detriment and a dreg of the coin collecting community. That is all.

 

Hogwash!

I might not mind, personally anyway, if a seller was using stock photos IF HE MADE THAT CLEAR IN THE LISTING. You do not which is deceptive & simply not right. A stock photo might be fine if you are selling a new book or DVD, but not something like a coin where the visual is very important so you know exactly what your getting (especially since you don't tell people you're doing it).

It's obvious you either just don't get it or do get it & are choosing to do what you do anyway.

 

Check out the Roosevelt with the die crack.

 

Point taken. From now on, in such cases, I will indicate it is a stock photo. Thank you.

 

I might not mind, personally anyway, if a seller was using stock photos IF HE MADE THAT CLEAR IN THE LISTING. You do not which is deceptive & simply not right. A stock photo might be fine if you are selling a new book or DVD, but not something like a coin where the visual is very important so you know exactly what your getting (especially since you don't tell people you're doing it).

YOU MAY WANT TO POST A COMPLAINT TO ALL THE SELLERS OF "BU" SILVER EAGLES, FOR THEY TOO, IN MOST CASES, ALSO POST STOCK PHOTOS, AND THEY TOO DO NOT SAY IN THEIR LISTING, THAT IT IS A STOCK PHOT. GO FIGURE.

 

Hey, I just noticed that aboncom has a 99.2% satisfaction rating and mentone mercantile has a 99.1% satisfaction rating on ebay. Hum? I'm just sayin'...

 

Alas , you miss the point. The point is that you do not even have the coins that you are purporting to sell. You are linked to a picture provided by aboncom. So you do have an interest financial and otherwise in them. Selling an item graded as MS-70 and using a stock photo is deceptive and contrary to Ebay's rules.
It is bait and switch as the winners of your auction will not be getting the coins shown, you are required by ebay to state in your ad that the winner will not recieve the coins pictured , and you do not.

This scam is going to come apart piece by piece as I find the pieces, i will post the facts here and on the Ebay forum.

Your stock photo answer doesnt cut it. You are linked by the photo to aboncom. When i sell on Ebay , I post a picture of the exact item being sold. I do not try to scam the public by baiting and switching. Your excuse is deplorable.

You say that you provide additional photos if asked. What happens to the uninitiated coin collector who counts on your honesty and doesn't ask. How on the planet can you sell the same coins that your friend in mansfield is selling, (NOT SIMILAR BUT THE SAME) and provide a picture of the coins. If They get sold in mansfield and they get sold in Mentone, what coins do the winners get.

By the way, i provide additional pics of the coin I am selling if someone asks for one. I do not supply a picture of a coin i dont have that is sitting infront of someone 2278 miles away which is apparently what you say you do.

Even if you send a picture of that particular coin or set of coins, I still don't get how You and Sparks can sell the same coins twice to different parties. Does anyone know if there is a federal crime afoot here?

This is a scam and it's gonna fall apart.

Bill

 

Your words, not mine.
Thanks, by the way, for making note of the stock photo form now on

 

I've complained to ebay about stock photos before & will again what's your point. Nobody said you were the only one doing it. At least they call their coins BU like they are & not MS70 like the SGS coins so clearly are not regardless of what's printed on the 'slab'.

 

This is a friendly forum, I've been nothing buit friendly and folks here know that my friends deserve to be protected from scams. That's what friends do. I have no personal grudge or feelings toward you, as I do not know you personally. A friend would examine the situation and probably select not to cheat the public.

On the second point, again, you miss the point. item number 8421590211 is aboncom's item and it is the photo you shared with him to conduct your sale.

It is the same photo you had on your site to sell what you say was your item... 8423257493

I find it interesting that your stock photo is aboncom's photo for the same item.

What coins will your winner get and what coins will aboncom's winner get. Will they have to flip an MS70 silver eagle and call heads or tails to find out?

Bill

 

feedback

I went to an abon ebay auction to look at thier feedback. I figured as much as they sell, even with 99% positive there must be a lot of negs, I was right, but what amazed me was the large number of people that buy multiple items on the same day. Not just a few items , I mean hundreds. At a quick glance I saw one buyer that bought 200 items in one day, and a couple that bought about 1 hundred items in one day. Is this normal, or is something going on??

 

Antitrust Laws and You

Many consumers have never heard of antitrust laws, but when these laws are effectively and responsibly enforced, they can save consumers millions and even billions of dollars a year in illegal overcharges. Most states have antitrust laws, and so does the federal government. Essentially, these laws prohibit business practices that unreasonably deprive consumers of the benefits of competition, resulting in higher prices for inferior products and services.

There are three major federal antitrust laws: the Sherman Antitrust Act, the Clayton Act, and the Federal Trade Commission Act. The following information on these laws comes from the Antitrust Enforcement and the Consumer guide.

Sherman Antitrust Act
This Act expresses our national commitment to a free market economy in which competition free from private and governmental restraints leads to the best results for consumers. This Act outlaws all contracts, combinations, and conspiracies that unreasonably restrain interstate and foreign trade. This includes agreements among competitors to fix prices, rig bids, and allocate customers, which usually are punishable as criminal felonies.

The Sherman Act also makes it a crime to monopolize any part of interstate commerce. An unlawful monopoly exists when only one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct.

The Act, however, is not violated simply when one firm's vigorous competition and lower prices take sales from its less efficient competitors; in that case, competition is working properly.

The Clayton Act
This Act is a civil statute (carrying no criminal penalties) that prohibits mergers or acquisitions that are likely to lessen competition. Under this Act, the government challenges those mergers that careful economic analysis shows are likely to increase prices to consumers. All persons considering a merger or acquisition above a certain size must notify both the Antitrust Division and the Federal Trade Commission. The Act also prohibits other business practices that may harm competition under certain circumstances.

The Federal Trade Commission Act
This Act prohibits unfair methods of competition in interstate commerce, but carries no criminal penalties. It also created the Federal Trade Commission to police violations of the Act.
The Department of Justice also often uses other laws to fight illegal activities, including laws that prohibit false statements to federal agencies, perjury, obstruction of justice, conspiracies to defraud the United States and mail and wire fraud. Each of these crimes carries its own fine and imprisonment term, which may be added to the fines and imprisonment terms for antitrust law violations.

Read more about the activities of the Antitrust Division:

Antitrust Enforcement and the Consumer
Price Fixing, Bid Rigging and Market Allocation Schemes: What They Are and What to Look For
Overview of the Antitrust Division
Antitrust Division Manual, Chapter 2: Statutory Provisions and Guidelines of the Antitrust Division.
How You Help the Antitrust Division

Information from the public is vital to the work of the Antitrust Division. Your e-mails, letters, and phone calls could be our first alert to a possible antitrust violation and may provide the initial evidence needed to begin an investigation.

The Antitrust Division's Citizen Complaint Center (CCC) facilitates communication of your concerns to the Division's legal staff. The CCC conducts a preliminary review of all complaints. If your complaint raises sufficient concern under the federal antitrust laws, the CCC will refer it to the appropriate Division section where additional research may lead to a formal investigation into the reported conduct.

Please keep in mind that the Antitrust Division is prohibited from giving legal advice to private individuals.

How to File a Complaint

If you have information about a possible antitrust violation or potential anticompetitive activity, please contact us by e-mail, regular mail, or phone. We recommend that you use the following questions as a guideline when describing your complaint:

What are the names of companies, individuals, or organizations that are involved?
How do you believe they have violated the antitrust laws?
Can you give examples of the conduct that you believe violates the antitrust laws? If so, please provide as much detail as possible.
What is the product or service affected by this conduct? Where is the product manufactured or sold, or where is the service provided?
Who are the major competitors that sell the product or provide the service?
What is your role in the situation in question?
Who is harmed by the alleged violations? How are they harmed?
How to Contact Us

You can reach us with your complaint by e-mail, regular mail, or phone.

E-mail
antitrust.complaints@usdoj.gov

Mail
Citizen Complaint Center
Antitrust Division
950 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Room 3322
Washington, DC 20530

Phone
1-888-647-3258 (toll free in the U.S. and Canada) or 202-307-2040
If you do not think your concerns involve the antitrust laws, you may want to visit the Department of Justice web page for more information or send an e-mail to AskDOJ@usdoj.gov.

Confidentiality Policy and Privacy Policy

Our Confidentiality Policy and Privacy Policy apply to all complaints received by the Antitrust Division.

Leniency Policies
Individuals or companies who (a) believe they may have been involved in criminal antitrust violations and (b) cooperate with the Antitrust Division may avoid prosecution if they meet the conditions of our individual or corporate leniency (amnesty) policies.

 

Hi Steve and All,

This is taken from Ebays website and is tyhe Code Of Conduct pertaining to the sale of coins is below my query of Steve.

Steve, ( I won't divulge your real name)
Let's have a friendly conversation. I looked at your website and I like it. You appear to be on the up and up.

It seems that education on coin matters stands in the way of the appearance of your ethics.

With respect to coins, Can you agree that an MS-70 designation, as is accepted in the hobby, is the perfect coin. Here are the definitions of MS-70 and MS-69 as set forth by PCGS. Without arguing the merits of third party graders in general, these standards are universally accepted as the standard for these grades.

MS-70. The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. NO contact marks are visible under magnification. There are absolutely NO hairlines, scuff marks or defects. Attractive and outstanding eye appeal. Copper coins must be bright with full original color and luster.



MS-69. Must have very attractive sharp strike and full original luster for the date and mint, with no more than two small non-detracting contact marks or flaws. NO hairlines or scuff marks can be seen. Has exceptional eye appeal. Copper coins must be bright with full original color and luster.

Grading at this level is so precise as can be seen by the difference between MS-70 and MS-69.

Again, if you accept these standards as the rest of the educated coin collecting public does, you would realize that any coin with any mark on it whether it be on the surface, or on the rim or on the edge would eliminate the coin from being graded MS-70.

If you have any knowledge of the minting process, you would understand that as circulation coins are minted, they are dropped into huge bins or huge bags. Thousands and thousands of coins are banging against each other. Each coin is being nicked and scratched to some degree.

This is the same for all coins other than proof specimens which are handled differently.

These coins are shipped in huge bags filled with coins. They are moved around by forklifts, they are piled into trucks and all the while, they are being banged around.

Coins are not wrapped at the Mint. They are shipped to coin counting companies like Brinks. The coins are run through counting machines and coin wrapping machines. Each process further nicks and mars a coins surface.

The average coin taken from a roll of coins by the time it reaches a bank, is MS63 to 65. Still an uncirculated grade, but way below an MS 70. The odds of a coin going through all these processes and coming out with NO, repeat, NO marks is impossible. That is why the designation of MS-70 is extremely rare. looking at the SGS stuff on Ebay is heartbreaking. You can see surface marks and poor strikes in all cases. Even the smallest pictures show some flaw in the coin.

Only the uneducated public who has no idea what he or she is doing and who depends upon an honest dealer will be cheated by these slabs as they do not understand the coin collecting industry. Coins Graded for SGS by SGS and sold by Aboncom who IS SGS (I've connected all the owners of both companies) is a gross conflict of interest.

Read the below Code of Conduct as set forth by Ebay. Read especially the section about being misleading about the items sold. Pay particular attention to the part about grading.

If you are ethical, and I think you are, and now that you have some education on the matter, I would at least hope that you rethink this situation.




Code of Conduct

http://pages.ebay.com/coins_code_of_conduct/

• Sellers agree not to knowingly sell, exhibit, trade, produce, or advertise a copy or reproduction of any numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word "copy" or "reproduction," incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof. These items are allowed to be sold provided:

1) their sale does not violate applicable laws or copyrights,

2) the item is incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof as a copy or reproduction on the front or back, and

3) the listing title AND description clearly state that the item is a copy or reproduction and includes an image of the marking.

Note: Restrikes are permitted for sale and they are not required to have "copy" or "reproduction" incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, if the item was produced or authorized for minting by the original issuing government.


• Sellers agree to represent a numismatic item to be genuine only when it is authentic to the best of their knowledge and belief. Learn more about authentication and see a list of authentication and grading services. Additional information is available about consumer protection at the ANA.

• Sellers agree not to knowingly handle or resell forgeries, unmarked copies, altered coins, or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.

• Sellers agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any numismatic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential.

• Sellers agree to sell numismatic items that they own free and clear of any challenge or those that they are authorized by the owner to sell.

• Sellers agree not to knowingly sell or buy counterfeit numismatic material.

• Sellers agree to promptly refund the purchase price for any item that has been deemed by the ANA as other than as offered or described by the seller.

• Sellers agree to abide by all laws relating to numismatic matters.




Thankls for reading,
Bill

 

HAVING POSTED THAT, THE LINK IS http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm.

It is not up to me, to accuse any of you of committing a crime, but I will suggest, that for all of you that are "in collusion" to attempt to prevent others from purchasing a product that compets with YOU, or with PCGS, or NGC, such behavior looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

 

Hard to really tell unless you do a lot of research on both their sales and their purchases and different ID names if at all possible. That's not to say that there aren't large scale purchasers out there but probably not as many as are represented in the sales histories.

 

Hi,
This is not an anti trust issue and that post has no bearing on anything. There are laws that apply to misrepresentation of an item for sale and that is what is going on here. There is an interstate conspiracy to sell overgraded coins to the uneducated public and it is the laws pertaining to that that are in play here.

What is going on here appears not to be an attempt to compete but an attempt to defraud the public.

It would be like a jeweler knowingly selling cut glass to an uneducated person and calling it a diamond.

The person is counting on the jeweler to be honest and has the full expectation that he now owns a diamond. The jeweler is hoping that the person never gets the purported diamond checked out by an expert in the field. In fact, the jeweler is counting on the fact that the hoax will go unnoticed long enough for it to be forgotten or pass a Statute of Limitations.

That is what is going on here. Hoaxes, Bait and Switch and preying on the ignorance of non-collectors.

What's worse is that some will make excuses for this behavior.

Bill

 

I for one have not said even once that a person should not by an SGS slabbed coin. If someone wants to, go for it. The first ammendment allows me to post facts in this or any other forum.

That's what I'm doing. There is nothing libelous or criminal. I am not suggesting that anyone should not buy an SGS slabbed coin. I only want to educate as many people as I can so that they understand what is in the slab and how it compares to other MS-70 graded coins on the market.

A person can decide for themselves if a coin that is perfect is MS-70 or a coin with a scratch is MS-70.

Thanks,
Bill

 

On another note, let's focus upon competition for a bit. My master's thesis focused upon the subject of Competitive Intelligence. I strongly believe in competition in markets so to level the playing field. There is no gain to the public good, when you don't have competition.

Moreover, the study of market dynamics is a necessary discipline in my field of study, and the active projects to which I have and continue to engage. Such included work for Lockheed Martin on pricing analysis.

So, the study of market dynamics in the category of coins, this too is an interesting study. The one immutable fact about Ebay and other online venues, is that the ability of all to offer coins for sale is a way of limiting the price gouging that went on for years with coin dealers. I am sure they were not happy that they had to compete with Ebay auctions. However, that allowed all of you to buy your coins at lower prices. You are not locked into a coin gallery, and you should be thankful, unless of course, you are a coin store.

 

Hey Warren...

Face it, you can defend SGS packaged and marketed coins till you are blue in the face, but most of the people here in this forum know EXACTLY what you and the likes of Aboncom are up to!

You are tangling out supposedly "third-partied-graded-perfect-70" coins in the hopes of duping "newbies" to pay more for the coin than it is worth. All I can say is shame on you! Shame on Aboncom for all of these "70" coins that were sold at ridiculous prices to unsuspecting buyers. Shame on eBay for turning a deaf ear!

"Natural selection" has a way with dealing with people like you. Go ahead and try to drown us with legal paperwork and briefs (it is what a scum attorney would do!) because your ACTIONS are not going to change any serious collector's views on SGS (Star Grading Service) and the rest of the eBay alphabet "scammers".

I feel sorry for you. You made a choice to sell this garbage. You defend it and since you made your bed, you now are going to have to lie in it.

No...let's not. Let's focus on the scam of sellers who package their OWN coins in plastic, gold foil tape, with "70" labels and then market them as independently graded and certified!

Go ahead and report me, I don't give a rat's behind what you do. Wait a minute! This is NOT eBay...thank God!