Success on Reporting Unethical Dealers?

Have others here had success with reporting unethical coin dealer activity?

Are these the main resources when dealing with unethical conduct: The ANA, the PNG, Numismatic publications, the BBB, the state AGs, and the other consumer affairs organizations?

Thanks.

 

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sounds pretty inclusive to me. I think most times it depends on the alleged activity.

 

Categories that I would categorize as unethical are misrepresentation of the coins, over-charging, being unresponsive as provable problems are brought to the attention of the coin dealer, discrepancies with verbal or written contracts, and so forth. The ethical codes are well-known to most collectors, investors and dealers on this site.

 

ask a attorney !!! :devil:

 

Too expensive; attorneys tend to be egotistical, crusty, greedy, and manipulative, sort of like the unethical coin dealer. And finding one that has knowledge of numismatics can be quite a challenge. Industry organizations and government agencies are probably the best bet.

 

What do you call ten dead lawyers?










A start!

 

Beats me.

Well, Goldline is going to be hauled into court in a few weeks on bait and switch tactics. I guess complaining sometimes does good.

 

A lawyer's dog, running around town unleashed, heads for a butcher shop and steals a roast. The butcher goes to the lawyer's office and asks, "if a dog running unleashed steals a piece of meat from my store, do I have a right to demand payment for the meat from the dog's owner?" The lawyer answers, "Absolutely."

"Then you owe me $8.50. Your dog was loose and stole a roast from me today."

The lawyer, without a word, writes the butcher a check for $8.50. The butcher, having a feeling of satisfaction, leaves.

Three days later, the butcher finds a bill from the lawyer: $100 due for a consultation.

 

None of those are ethical issues, IMO. They are customer service and/or legal issues and not under the purview of the ANA/PNG, etc., as I understand them.

Do you disagree? If so, why, specifically?

 

Not ethical, are you kidding? Ethics addresses moral issues, everything there is an ethical issue. If the dealer has no conscience and wants to reject the most basic principles of business, then maybe he/she should go back to being a security guard, janitor work, or collecting cans on the side of the road. At least in those professions people are not going to get ripped off usually.

 

Well, misrepresentation would be included in a lawsuit, so would being unresponsive if the complaint was something covered in a warranty, as would discrepancies with contracts. All of these things would be covered by the UCC, and would need to be dealt with in a lawsuit against them. Overcharging would depend on what you are talking about. Someone charges $100 when some guide book says its worth $50? Who says the guidebook is right? I know a lot of coins I would gladly pay twice price guide for. There IS no such thing as overcharging really, if a buyer and seller agree, then that is the price.

Like Doug said, many things people believe are actionable or sacntionable aren't. To have a better opinion, we would need to know the exact nature of the offense. There is a world of difference between selling a fake product with a return privilege and then not allowing returns, and selling a coin a book says is worth $50 for $100, and everything in between. In all of these situations, the devil is in the details.

Chris

 

I have one for you. This is not of any great magnitude, but I attended my first coin show about six months ago. Almost every single dealer was polite, seemed honest within reason, and courteous except for one. The guy was very interested in making a trade for my 1855 3 dollar gold piece. I wasn't going to part with it (took it there to get authenticated) but I entertained his offers. At one point and I am almost 99% certain on this, he actually pulled a penny out of a drawer and tried to pass it off as a 1909-S VDB. There was no S below the 1909. He proceeded to tell me that it was worth 1300, and he would be willing to make an even trade. That to me is unethical. If I ever see him at a show again I'm not even going to stop at his table.

 

I don't know about other states; however, NY's Attorney General offices only act as a mediator between two or more disputing parties. They don't investigate anything for private citizens unless public funds, i.e. tax dollars, or money placed in trust by groups of people for investment purposes and a return is expected.

I have a dispute with a dealer I can file an application with the NYAG office for mediation.

I want to report of dealer for unethical business practices, my best bet would be to file a complaint with the BBB.

 

That is a very serious violation of ethics, trading a cent that is not rare for a gold coin that is. You could email the show manager. I have had mixed results with this, one fellow said, please do not take it up with law enforcement, another ignored the email. If your coin is certified, or was certified, then an approximate value could be determined.

A deal is not necessarily a deal. If the uneducated party is not aware of the ramifications of the business as the fully aware coin dealer is, the law recognizes rights on the part of the former. Even the law recognizes that mental impairment or insufficiency is grounds for a suit when the other party takes advantage.

I am aware that that many people would argue virorously against this. But I could give sufficient examples where those taken advantage of have successfully argued their case in court.

 

I think you should post the case(s) in which you speak of.

You have to remember it's a buyer beware market, especially in collectibles, i.e. coins. No one's arm is being twisted forcing them to buy.

It's not as easy to prove a dealer acted in violation of any fraud statutes, and the buyer always has the option to walk away. Most sales, especially coins, are as is, meaning the condition with which the item is in at the time of the sale is accepted by the buyer when purchasing it, with no guarantees.

The only exceptions that would have a chance of winning in court would be:

1.) One party is a minor under the age of 18 and cannot be held to the same level of responsibility as a person 18 years or older.

2.) The complaining party can prove mental defect, or capacity that would prevent them from acting in the same manner as a person without such defect or lower capacity.

3.) Obvious fraud.

 

Blah, blah, blah!

"You have to remember it's a buyer beware market, especially in collectibles, i.e. coins. No one's arm is being twisted forcing them to buy."

Oh really?

Usual rhetorical drivel. No one is forcing them? But they are using every trick in the book. We have heard this so many times and it is becoming tiresome, frankly.


Are we talking about giving the customer 50% of fair market value? 10% 70%? 90%? That is the big question. I see far too many cases of people being royally screwed because the buyer knows exactly what the coin(s) are worth and the seller knows jack. Those who play that game are unbelievably unethical. Why work a $10/hr. job, when they luck out with a huge payday on a rare find???

I am sure that those who advocate the posession is 99% of the law are card carrying libertarians who care nothing for the hard luck reality of the sellers.

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t196842-2/#ixzz1h7aVXpd6​

 

This may be an urban legend, but I have heard that if a dealer tells you that your coin is worth x amount, and it is some small fraction of the true price then they are breaking the law, but if they tell you, I will give you x amount, and it is some small fraction of the true value, then they are in the clear. I have heard that is why hotel buyers have in their fine print that they are not appraisers and why they will not tell you what the fmv of your coin is, only what they will pay for it.

 

I found an old business law book laying around the house and this is what I found.

A lot of what it appears we are talking about falls under " Scienter "

**Scienter - is the legal word for "guilty knowledge." Nonlawyers frequently believe that they can claim ignorance of the falsity of a statement and thus defeat a claim for fraud. However, scienter goes beyond actual knowlege- it includes careless indeifference to the truth, a lack of belief by the declarer in his/her statements. Whether scienter is present is a question for a properly instructed jury, and juries can be cynical about persons who "unintentionally" lie to gain an advantage.

**Fraud- If a person enters into a contract as a result of the intentional misrepresentation or deceit of the other party to the contract, there is no meeting of the minds, no agreement, and hence no legal obligation. In most cases of mistake, both parties are innocent of wrongdoing-the minds simply did not meet. In the case of fraud, however, the minds not only do not meet, but one party is guilty of deception, dishonest conduct.


On the flip-side, this is what it says under examples of misrepresentations of Material Facts:

** Matters pertaining to value and matters asserted as opinion are generally not factual in nature and are not grounds for fraud.


Not sure how this all equates to the coin world. Seems like a lot of grey area.



(Barron's "Business Law" Robert W. Emerson, J.D. Fifth Edition)