Yes, I was thrown back when I found this 50 cents coin: I thought it was just terribly beaten up but when I dropped it (oops), it just gives a wierd ring tone. I decided to confirm my suspicion and behold - weights more than 1 gram less than other coins that I have in my collection. Weighing at just 8.13g, I just find it odd. I guess back then, 50 cents was worth a lot more but you had dollar coins circulating. Here's a genuine 50 cents in a mint set for comparison: Singapore isn't too well known for counterfeited coins because of the strict laws but again, it just slips through. It doesn't hurt to be vigilant at all times even with common circulated coins.
Cool find. Depending on the value of the original, the copy may be worth as much or more simply for a circulating counterfeit collection.
Are you sure it can't be an off metal strike, or struck on foreign planchet? As you mentioned, their strict laws make it not worth the risk. I'm sure the counterfeiter would get more than just being whacked on the rear end with a sugar cane stalk.
Idk, I think I would accept a contemporary forgery, (especially considering the ethnicity of most Singaporeans), over an offmetal strike. To claim an offmetal strike, I would really once some great evidence to prove it. Btw, no offense meant against Chinese, its just your culture has a very long tradition of contemporary imitations on a mass scale that many other cultures don't, thats all. Chris
why would anyone seriously counterfeit a lower denomination modern coin..................and a racist slur against the chinese is well out of order,
I would think the same reason the Chinese have counterfeited circulating coins for centuries, they can counterfeit them for less than face value. I have seen Chinese versions of dimes and cents with contemporary counterfeits. Btw sir, I stated why my statement was not racist, merely alluded to that culture's history, of which I study and collect. As well, my wife is Asian and my son is half asian, so I guess I simply do not consider myself as racist toward Asians. I am simply repeating the same facts as to China's culture of contemporary counterfeit production that any serious Chinese collector can/will attest to. I do apologize if that remark taken out of context offended anyone. Chris
I don't see how ethnicity matters. The reason China produces so many counterfeits is due to lax laws. The same is not true for Singapore, regardless of which ethnic group one belongs to. Singapore is known for assisted error coins, but that only applies to those made in the last 10 years. BTW, I don't think anything about Chris's post is racist. It's a fact that China is the predominant source of fakes in the modern age. Not just coins either.
Dmitry, I was referring to the fact in Ching China, and for most other dynasties, the penalty for counterfeiting was death. This still did not stop the plethora of contemporary counterfeits that are still found today. These forgeries are amply documented in Kahn's book, and most other Chinese numismatic histories. I was simply postulating since Chinese culture is very used to counterfeiting contemporary coins for profit for over 2000 years, even in the face of death, it would not be too much of a stretch to think they may have done so in 1970 Singapore. That's all, and it was just an opinion. If Singapore during this period had a reputation for off metal strikes, then I would gladly stand corrected. Chris
I strongly believe there's a fine line between facts and stereotyping. This would probably fall in between them which becomes an ugly debate. Here's my points: Chinese counterfeit a lot of everything and this is a problem. - Fact There are Chinese ethnic groups in Singapore - Fact Chinese ethnic groups are causing problems in Singapore (anywhere else possibly US, Canada, etc) - stereotype Unless you disagree with what I typed out, I personally see this as a problem. Stereotyping is just one step before racism and unless it's made clear what the difference between facts and stereotypes are, why stir up a hornet's nest? It's no longer numismatics.
Stereotyping is racism in it's plainest form. My family came to the US from the Ukraine when I was 8 years old, and I had experienced plenty of stereotyping in my youth. It's an ugly thing for a kid. And in a society where it's prevalent, kids grow up either defeated by it and accepting it, or they grow up angry and vengeful. Neither one is a good outcome. One interesting thing about numismatics is that you see stuff that is completely not politically correct today. For example, the 1788/1792 Barbados penny and 1/2 penny coins that show the head of a black man with the words "I SERVE" beneath.
Seriously? A man, who is married to an asian women, who has studied Chinese coins and numismatic history for over a decade, (not just bought coins but studied the history and background), simply talking about the EXTREMELY well documented history of contemporary counterfeits that the largest group of people in Singapore have experience with is stereotyping/racism? Sorry I am simply offended. I did not speak of a minority, but the majority. I did not speak unfoundedly, but based upon numbers of books and numismatic history. I did not pick on a group of which I wish to persecute, my wife is a member of that group. I did not speak from geographical ignorance, I have been to China and all of SE Asia including Singapore. If what I said is unallowable, then basically any statement about any group of people should not be allowed on this board. If that is true, then why even bother studying history? Is NOTHING about any culture allowed to be uttered in public? Am I allowed to discuss how Hepthalite women were married to all of the brothers simultaneously, or is that sexist and racist? I just need to take time away from here I suppose. I would have hoped anyone who knew me and the hundreds of hours I have spent studying Chinese history, Chinese numismatic history, and Chinese culture would not labeling me racist or a stereotyper against a culture, (and a wife), that I love. Evidently not. Chris
Has our world become that uptight and politically correct? He didn't say "All Chinese are counterfeiters" or "Chinese cause problems in other countries". He simply said that it's more likely a counterfeit because China has a history of prolific counterfeiters and most of the Singaporean population has close ties with China. It's just following a string of logic to a probable conclusion (like, if A=B and B=C, then A=C). Doesn't mean it's correct, but it doesn't mean the person has any ill will or racist feelings behind saying it either. Here in NYC we have a Chinatown, and most people who live here know that it's the place to go for anything counterfeit. Those people are not stereotyping or being racist, they are just going by the facts of reality around them. I guess we've gone so off topic that it's best this thread was locked.
Weigh your other Sing 50 cent coins dated 1969. I've been looking at the KM catalog & they do not list any difference in composition between 1967 and 1980. However, in 1973 there were some changes made in the local monetary arrangements between Singapore Malaysia, & Borneo. I don't know any of the nuances but perhaps there was a composition change which is not currently listed in Krause. It would be interesting to weigh some other 1969 dated 50 cent coins. I'll check my collection tonight to see if I have one from 1969. It could be normal. It could be an off metal error. It could be a fake.
I have a 1967 Singapore 50 cent in BU. It weighs 9.43 grams. I guess your 8.13 gram coin is either an error or a fake.
When dealing with contemporary counterfeits ALL countries have extensive histories of producing them, even if the laws were strict. In the late 1780's up to 90% of the coins in circulation in Great Britain were counterfeit even though the penalty for counterfeiting was death. And counterfeiters WERE executed.
Glad that you and collect89 came along and put this thread and on track. =) You said up to 90% of the stuff was fake, can it really be that high? I know I find 10 times more authentic early British coppers than non-regal ones. And I specifically look for the non-regal issues because they are usually worth more.
I believe that number is for the coppers because the British simply refused to mint them for some reason. Again if I am wrong I would stand corrected. I wish to apologize to anyone on this thread who honestly believed I was stereotyping anyone. If you believe I was being racist I doubly apologize. In an anonymous board you don't really know anyone, so I understand how my comments could be misread as another slam on this board against Chinese because of recent issues US collectors have had with fakes. If it helps anyone, I have studied Chinese numismatic and cultural history for over a decade seriously. I have a quite large library of nearly all scholarly references printed in English on the subject. I especially study Chinese ties in relation to the Huns, Youzhe, Uighurs, Sogdians, and all other people on the perimeter of China. My Chinese collection numbers well into the thousands of pieces, and I still accumulate other pieces. I have been to China, and most other countries in Eastern Asia. My wife is Asian, and I myself am half Native American who of course came from NE Asia. I only say this to show that I do not think I am racist, I have defended Asians against racism on this board and in numerous other locations, and have in fact had me and my wife been victims of racism by rednecks who do not like seeing mixed couples. Going out in public I always have to be aware of the fact that we may have to deal with racists, and deal with them. Again, if anyone thought I was being racist, or stereotyping anyone here I again apologize. No one should have to deal with that on a coin forum, and I know exactly how it feels to be on the other end of such feelings. Having more information about me, and my life journey, I would hope everyone would accept I did not mean what you might have thought I meant. Chris
