I’m not real familiar with the grading of ASEs, so I was wondering is NGC was a little too liberal when grading this ASE. It is a 2011 (S) graded as MS69. So I guess my question is does this coin fit that grade of MS69? The reason I ask is because I notice some scratches and dings on the coin. I know their presence is what prevents this coin from being a MS70 (that much I know J), however, is the location and amount of these “defects” common for a MS69 graded ASE? Thanks for your advice and input in advance. Here’s the front of the coin, and the things that caught my eye are as follows: A scratch on the dress above the knee of the leg closest to the rising sun. A curved scratch/ding on the rim of the coin between the B and E in liberty. Another curved scratch/ding on the rim of the coin between 0 and 1 in year of 2011. The back of the coin (please ignore the black u-shaped fiber towards the top of the coin – I didn’t notice it was attached to the outside of the slab until after I took the pictures, and subsequent pictures after removing the fiber didn’t turn out nearly as well. Go figure.) A ding next to the middle leaves of the olive branch. A light scratch next to the arrow tips. A light scratch above and running the length of “one” in the one dollar. A curved scratch/ding on the rim above the R in America.
The scratches on the rim are too minor to affect the grade. The other detracting marks don't appear to be in the prime focal areas* so would not tend to be that grade-limiting. I think the MS69 is reasonable. *The ANA Grading Standards does not cover the American Eagle bullion coins, and thus, does not identify the prime focal areas. Someone who has a back issue of Coin Values (which is published by Coin World) could probably give you this information. Chris
I know that the TPGs are supposed to be 'experts', however, my opinion as to grade often differs from theirs. I guess that is why they say over and over, buy the coin, not the slab. I have seen coins that IMO are over or under graded. I believe there are several factors, ranging from human error to politics involving favored dealers.
Simple answer - yes. Kind of hard for that to happen when the graders have no idea who it was that submitted the coins.
That was just my opinion. We can agree to disagree, but I don't believe that for a minute if the TPG wants it known.
I've seen 70's with the same issues... In fact I think I have on here on my desk in the land of unwanted coins...
I was told by a coin dealer in my area, whom I believe, the average NGC grader does about 800 coins a day. That is about 1 coin every half minute. If that is indeed the case, it would seem things would sometimes fall through the cracks. even though these people are pros. I have also read they do their grading without a loupe. That may account for some of the flaws mentioned. I have had NGC 69-graded ASEs with the same issues, but sold them when spot silver was higher because I didn't like the flaws. I have also had 69-graded ASEs with milk spots, which I returned immediately, as I don't like them at all. I know some will say, "Hey, it's bullion; who cares?" Well; to me, it makes a difference. I have learned it is usually better to buy coins in person, if at all possible and don't forget the magnifier. I think the coin grading structure we have today is definitely a positive in many ways, but it is not the be all and end all.
I have had NGC buy graded silver eagles from me that didn't pass the regrade. They do stand behind their guarantee even on these coins.
......and you can reduce that half minute by more than 50% because that is time spent on processing & paperwork. Chris
An Honest Statement!! Thanks for the verification of discontinuities, as I've seen on PF70DCAM AGE coins. I give up!! When an associate (who wanted the coin) complained about the condition, I "gave it" to him for $50 above melt value. I wouldn't want it to be accidently sold on eBay and receive negative feedback because of the grading, as others have reported on this site. It's amazing how buyers expect a flawless coin when you show a TPG 70 grade certified coin. Don't they understand "market grading"? I'm expecting the TPG to start a PF70DCAM++ grade for an unblemished almost flawless coin. IMHO the grading system is virtually meaningless/broken when one purchases a sight unseen "perfect" grade "top tier" TPG certified coin at an appreciable premium, receiving a obviously flawed coin. Just my opinion, probably worth at least that which was paid for same.
Here's a synopsis of various grades found on numismedia.com How does the 69-grade standard compare to the actual coin being discussed in this thread? The standards seem to be stricter than the actual reality. http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/grades.shtml
I would call this coin over graded. I have several coins in the MS69 grade and none show hits that I can see.
Thank you for the advice, it is comforting to know that someone thinks a grade of MS69 is reasonable for the coin. It is interesting to find out that the ANA Grading Standards do not cover bullion versions of ASEs…makes me wonder what standards NGC is using then for such coins. Fair enough. Well, that’s good to hear, but I take it this coin is obviously not the best example of a MS69. I could understand that one. I would be upset if I bought a MS70, and it came in with the same issues. Maybe it’s just me, but I would expect a MS70 to be as close to perfect as one can get. Grading 800 coins a day without a loupe? If true, then that is downright depressing given that they are paid to grade a coin to the best of their ability. I think the next coin show I attend I will look for another coin in the same grade, and if it is a better example then I might just buy it. That makes sense to me. After reviewing the link, the standards do appear to be stricter than the actual reality. Using this grading scale, I would assign either a MS63 or MS64 for the coin being discussed. I feared as much, I think I will hold onto it until I can get a better example of the coin at the next coin show I attend.
Have you ever read the ANA standards ? If not, you should. You should also be aware that no TPG uses the ANA grading standards. Every one of them uses their own, individual set of grading standards. Have you ever looked at coins, other than bullion or commem issues, that have been graded MS69 ? You should do this as well for it will make you familiar with what the TPGs consider 69 quality. No it isn't. Nor did I say that I agreed with the grade. But then that wasn't your question. You asked if the number and location of the marks were commonly found on coins graded 69. And the answer to that is definitely yes. And that is exactly what the definition of a 70 is. Even a 70 is not perfect, it is merely as close as you can get. For some reason people get hung up on this. They seem to think that it must by necessity take a while to properly grade a coin. It doesn't. For people that know how to grade it only takes a few seconds to properly and accurately grade a coin. But people seem to think that just because they can't do it themselves that nobody else can, or should be able to, either. As far as the statement that an NGC grader grades 800 coins a day, they grade several times that many in a day. And it always seems that people are shocked to learn that 95% of all grading is done with the naked eye - and correctly so. When it comes to grading a loupe is only used when grading the ultra-high grades. The key there is in understanding the words "when grading". A loupe is simply not needed for grading the vast majority of the time. Typically a loupe is only used when authenticating a coin, or when trying to identify a particular variety - both things that have nothing to do with grading. Or - when grading the ultra-high grades like 69 & 70. But since very, very, very few coins are worthy of that grade - a loupe is seldom needed when grading. Would you ? Perhaps you need to read those basic standards again - MS 69 - This is a coin that should create a gasp when viewed. There should be no imperfections to the naked eye. With a magnifying glass a minor mark or impediment may be visible. Pay particular attention to the underlined section, then look at your coin. Your pictures greatly magnify the coin. I'm not denying that marks you describe are there, but can you actually see them with the naked eye ? I'd wager that most would not. But I do agree that the wording they use is misleading when they say "a minor mark". Even the ANA standards, which are the strictest standards we have, dictate that a coin can have at least 2 minor marks and still be correctly graded as a 69. But nobody uses or follows the ANA standards, except private individuals. That said, even if the ANA standards were used, your coin would grade a 68.
It is also important to note that "with the naked eye" also implies "at a normal viewing distance" and not "when held as close to the eye as possible". The other thing that the standards only elude to is the weighting of imperfections as to where on a given type of coin they appear. Generally more (negative) weight is given to imperfections that stand out to the naked eye like flat fields or large devices. The seemingly short amount of time spent grading is actually an important part of the process. Given an inordinate amount of time, we see more and more defects and this is not the intent of coin grading, to weed out every last possibly detectable imperfection. Modern, direct from the mint special purpose coins would possibly benefit from their own grading system, one that essentially spread out the grades from 67 through 70 into three or four times as many levels. That might help soften this ten to one value difference between 69s and 70s.
