I know the image isn't good, but unfortunately, it's the best the seller can do. They tried sending me a video of the coins, but that was just... weird. Anyway, I was hoping for input on whether the scratches on the devices are actually adjustment marks. I don't know a lot about 18th century silver, so I can only go off what I have found online. Based upon my brief research, adjustment marks would be planchet file marks. That said, wouldn't the die process cause the adjustment marks in the device areas to be less substantial than the fields? This looks more like the coin was scratched, then worn over time, rather than planchet adjusted. Also, on a secondary point, how many grades do adjustment marks drop grades? Are they treated like bag marks? Are they worse? Thanks for any input/information.
They used very course rasps at the time plus the lower pressurs of the screw presses did not erase them. They only effect grades in that they lessen eye appeal and that normally does not come into play until higher grades as they where part of the minting process at the time.
I do not see those as adjustment marks. I see them as PMD scratches. True adjustment marks and added silver are considered part of the planchet and should not affect grade at all, but a PMD scratch of course will. I have seen many marks attributed to "adjustment marks" on these by sellers, since of course it will greatly affect the grade better than if they are scratches. Most adjustment marks where these scratches are would have been worn away by circulation. Adjustment marks are most noticable on MS pieces. If you have a circulated coin like this and the seller claims "adjustment marks" always take that with a huge dose of skepticism. I have seen them, all of the way down to a VF coin, but its truly unusual. Chris
Chris brings up a good point about being skeptical when this amount of money is involved I recommend buying professionally graded coins. Personally I have a self imposed limit of $100.00 if I cannot see it in hand or a known seller with a no questions asked return policy. BTW I have a 1795 Half that is graded as F15 that has visable adjustment marks on it so circultion does not get rid of them all the time.
Pretty sure those are not adjustment marks on that coin. That said, it is worth noting that not all adjustment marks were done at the planchet stage. On silver coins more than a few occurred after striking.
To be fair, post strike adjustment marks have always been somewhat controversial. I have read threads about the issue where people are 50/50 as to whether they were authentic adjustment marks. Adding or subtracting weight was SUPPOSED to be done prior to striking if I recall correctly. IDK where I fall on the issue.
It's pretty well documented that adjustment also occurred after striking, with silver coins. And more than that, it is logical that they occurred after striking as well as before striking. Otherwise, why would they have bothered to weigh the coins after striking ? I got into a short discussion about this with Roger Burdette not long ago. He confirms my comments.
Ok, fair enough. I thought the weighing was done of the planchets, not the finished coins. I knew others have had opinions to the contrary. Why would they weigh them AFTER striking when no added silver could be added? It makes a lot more sense to make all adjustments to the flans before striking, when both deductions and additions of metal could be made. Either way I am not an expert on these, just have read quite a bit about them and own some. I will defer opinion. Bottom line is I would bet half of all "adjustment marks" claimed are PMD to me. Real ones do occur, but always make SURE that is what it is before you buy. Personally I think they are interesting, but find added silver to the flan even more interesting. Chris
I'm glad to see that the consensus appears to agree with my original assessment that they aren't adjustment marks.
Yes, planchets were always weighed. But the finished coins were always weighed too. Why ? Well for one thing they had a law saying they had to. Still do in fact. For another thing they were weighed after to catch, not only mistakes, but thieves. And don't forget, from every batch of coins there were always those chosen at random and sent to the assayers. This was yet a 3rd effort to assure that no coins were being issued over-weight or under-weight. I have tried for years to convince people that adjustment marks occurred before striking and after striking. I have almost always been shouted down and told that I didn't know what I was talking about. Burdette's new book hopefully proves otherwise For what it's worth, I have also long agreed that many coins with "adjustment marks", including many of those that are slabbed, do not have any adjustment marks on them.
I have looked at coins and have been told that they were filed (adjusted) down. I have never seen or been told a coin I was looking at, was added to, especially one with a TPG label. Does anyone have a picture of one so I can see it first hand? I know they are real but they certainly must be a rairity. I have attended many coin shows; local, regional and national, and haven't come across this type yet.
I found this article Sam: http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com/coin_info/one_dollar_silver/1795_flowing_hair_S$1_silver_plug.htm
Thanks for the link medoraman. For some reason I can't access it here, so once I leave this site, I'll try a hand entry on google and see if that makes a difference.
Not sure what you mean by "added to". Do you mean somebody actually adding weight to a coin ? If you do, I do not know of a single instance other than the silver plug dollars that Chris linked to. And you don't really need a link for them, heck they're in the Red Book.
My guess is that those are not adjustment marks. But either way, why not look for a more appealing example? There are plenty to be had.
Adjustment marks on the planchet before striking would be MORE substantial on the devices than in the fields. The fields of the dies are the highest parts and they make contact with the marks and compress/flatten them before the metal begins to fill the devices. The marks in the device areas are not flattened until the metal fills the devices completely. If the strike is a little soft the marks will remain on the devices and will be strongest in those areas of the highest relief. I don't think Rogers book would help on this subject because it doesn't deal with the proper time period. During the era of his book planchets were adjusted by filing the edge. Struck coins were weighed and sorted into light, normal, and heavy coins for proper mixing in bags to achieve bag weight tolerance but they were not adjusted after striking. The late 18th and very early 19th century coins MAY have also been adjusted after striking, but such adjustments would be indistinguishable from post mint damage.
I agree with what you're saying here, but it is important for people to understand that even though the adjustment marks in the device area are not flattened completely on a weakly struck coin, they are still flattened and altered somewhat even on weakly struck coins. That's because as the metal moves during the strike and begins to flow into the devices the metal stretches and bubbles (for lack of a better term) upwards (with the hammer die) or downwards (with the anvil die). This completely alters the shape, depth, and definition of the adjustment marks - even on the areas of highest relief. This is what makes it possible to tell the difference between adjustment marks and damage. But only on coins where adjustment was made prior to strike. On coins where adjustment was made post strike the only way you can tell damage from adjustment marks is by the shape, depth and definition of the marks themselves. Adjustment marks will tend to be straight, uniform in depth, flattened in the bottom of the groove and sharply defined except at the very ends of each mark, and there is no metal built up on either side of the groove. Whereas damage is typically the opposite, it is seldom straight, the grooves are typically V shaped, there is most often metal on one side or the other of the groove, and they are most often deeper at one place or another. True, his new book covers from 1837 on. And yes, he says the planchets were adjusted by filing the edge, but he was referring to that happening with gold coins, not silver. We shall have to disagree on the underlined part. Granted, it happened very seldom with silver, and never with gold - after 1837. But there are some few cases where it did happen. On this we shall also have to disagree, for a large part of the time they are distinguishable. Granted, there may be some times they are not, but they are few and far between because of the characteristics I described above. Even Burdette agreeed Michael that adjustment marks occurred pre-strike, and post-strike. You are of course free to disagree, or say "may" if you wish. edit - for those who would like to read Roger Burdette's comments, you can find them here - http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5193315&nt=3&fpart=2
