artificial toning

I came across this VERY long thread in another Coin Talk thread, about artificial toning, and a guy who got caught doing it...to PCGS slabbed coins.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=535409&highlight_key=y

Honestly, I have been reading...and reading...and reading... I know some of you have been around these forums for a long time, and I humbly request you tell me what happened! I beg of you, since I don't want to further extend a thread that's at least five years old and 40 pages long.

1. Please confirm: Did the guy actually AT the coins while they were in the slab?
2. Did anyone ever find out how he did it? This would, after all, make him the Frank Abagnale of coins.
3. Was there any legal action; e.g., by PCGS? Considering the above, I find it hard to believe there wouldn't have been.
4. Are there any articles elsewhere online that I can read about this?

I am simply curious and really want to close the loop on my curiosity. I have no interest in learning how to tone coins...other than to avoid AT and being a victim of fraud myself.

Thanks!
maryelise8863

 

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1) Yes, I believe that he did.
2) Not to my knowledge.
3) Not to my knowledge. As I recall, the coins were of low value, not made more "valuable" from the toning and he offered to buy back any that he had sold. I think that is was very small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
4) None that know of - that thread should be your best source.

 

It is not to difficult to figure out once you realize that the slab is not air tight.

 

Does that apply to the new PCGS and NGC slabs as well? I had a really tough time cracking them, and I din't see a single seam that wasn't sealed super tight.

 

The current slabs are not airtight. If they were, PCGS wouldn't post the water or smoke clauses in their grade guarantee. An airtight slab would inherently be water-proof, as well.

 

The seams may seem very tight, but if you want to waste a slab, immerse it in a cup of water with some blue inkjet ink for a marker color and you can tell after a few days. Dealing with molecules is a whole different level. IMO of course.

 

I'll have to get a cheap slabbed coin and try that out. It does make perfect sense though. Thanks for the knowledge. =)

 

I appreciate the responses!

OK, this brings up another question I don't want to ask, but needs asking... How easy is it then to crack open a slab, replace the coin with a replica, and make it look like it was never opened? I supposed all you need are the same tools the grading company uses, a lot of patience, and some practice. Oh yeah, and absolutely no scrupples!

People can buy nearly anything on eBay and Amazon...not meaning to slam either because they can be great resources. So setting up your own coin doctoring shop is probably pretty easy.

Again, I don't want to know the how part. But I do want to know the best resources where I can read up on these scams. And any input other knowledgable collectors are willing to give.

 

Dear administrators,

I am now looking for the "appalled" button to describe my mood based on what I'm learning in this thread. Just saying...

 

My recent experience with cracking PCGS slabs tells me you pretty much would need the same type of equipment the grading companies use. The holders are reiforced with several layers of plastic behind the seam and sealed internally as well. Plus, the plastic easily fractures when you apply pressure with something like a wedge. Even trying to be very careful (so as not too risk scratching the coins) I ended up breaking off large chunks from the slabs.
Im sure a good band saw can cut it clean in half, but re-sealing it would be noticeable to someone that knows what to look for.
And even using a fine saw around the edge is no guarantee the plastic won't break off. Just look at what happened when I did it: http://www.cointalk.com/t193823/

 

Numismat...reading your other thread about trying to crack the slab... Hysterical! Except the plastic dust in your eye and hurt thumb, of course. Guess I'm never going to want to crack open a slab to submit for regrading somewhere. I hurt myself just doing the every day stuff...

GDJMSP...thanks again for the responses. I'll try to do a better job searching for topics here...it's just a bit overwhelming. I'm a knowledge junky when I'm interested in something, and throw myself into it. Darndest thing toning coins in slabs...

PS - Just want to give a plug to my favorite coin club, the C4OA: http://www.carsoncitycoinclub.com! I'm referring them over here to Coin Talk, so I wanted to return the favor...plug...advertising...whatever!

 

I have heard of a number of such attempts. Some individuals have apparently opened PCGS and NGC holders and switched coins. In some cases, even a cursory glance at the edges of the holder made it obvious, but in other cases the work was very difficult to spot.

It's known that this has been done, and detected. But what's not known is how many such switches have gone undetected. My guess is that there are still some out out there, but likely, a very small number.

If buyers know how to assess/grade coins, they are obviously far less likely to end up with a switched coin.

 

Assuming the slabs are not air tight, than contact with convecting moist warm air carrying sulfur could indeed tone a coin in a slab. (Clad, Silver, and Copper can be toned with the same sulfur rich chemicals)
Sounds scary, but the fact the slabs have a serial number it could be used to trace the before and after and kill an AT dealer reputation.
There are currency doctors that are popping classics out of slabs, and doctoring the crap out of them, but I never heard of them returning them to counterfeit slabs using the same card insert? I see it coming though, and that sounds scary!!!
I'm a fan of embedding the slabs with anti-counterfeit, anti-tampering technology. How about a RFID that dies when it's exposed to oxygen, and sealed argon or neon filled slabs. Come on PCGS, NGC, PMG, ICG protect our investments! Isn't that why they get the big bucks?

 

Yes that was my first "crack" at it, and hopefully my last. The plastic seems to be specifically made to be tamper resistant.

In addition to what Mark said, if you are not sure if the coin matches the holder, look up other examples in that grade and see how the details on your coin stack up. You also want to look for anything that would prevent a coin from getting a standard numerical grade: cleaning/hailrlines, adjustment marks, environmental damage, etc. If a coin has this it shouldn't be slabbed with a number grade.

 

I wonder if doing that would be cost effective for the company, and thus the collector.
NGC and PCGS already offer additional photography services for submitted coins. Standardizing this practice, rather than making it a premium option, would safely stop the in-slab doctoring. One can simply look up the serial number and see what the coin looked like when it was slabbed.

 

If a person had a concern, the PCGS Plus service is available at a fair price for laser recording the surface of a coin. Any variation at a later time could be detected by that and a colored photograph. Eventually, I believe that PCGS will incorporate both a standard digital photograph and the Secure Plus into the price of the grading process and make up the monetary difference by selling subscriptions for people to confirm their coins identity.

 

Agreed. I believe way too many people would get accused of AT when it was naturally occurring toning in the slab. Since slabs are not airtight, there would never be any way of knowing the difference, just like all toning. Any color photo tracing of coin versus slab will basically become a modern day witch hunt.