What do think about this some will love some will hate it

This was not the first coin he has made so why all the outcry.I find it not to my taste and because its not truely a us coin i see no reason to run it and its maker down.This is a good chance to see how many rights we enjoy and we also have the right not to buy it or even be here to comment on it.AMERICA LOVE IT

 

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We've had this discussion many times before, and it never fails to divide.
The fact is that technically these coins are not counterfiet, but fantasy, but to a serious numismatist, there is little, if any practical difference. Yes, the first person to buy one of these unmarked as 'fantasy' coins will understand fully the nature of the piece, HOWEVER, in 5, 10, 50, 100, 200 years from now, there WILL be victims that end up with these coins through no fault of their own, and they will end up on the market as 'real' coins. It' unthinkable that someone who claims to love our hobby will foist these upon the hobby, knowing that unmarked they will eventually wreck havoc.
I'm done. The issue is too divisive.

 

As the subject of this thread, perhaps I should weigh in here with some comments.

There are two types of counterfeits:

1)
The traditional definition of "counterfeit", in a currency sense, is an item that is manufactured to appear to be legal tender, and is passed as such. The counterfeiter makes a profit on the difference between the production cost and the face value.

2)
An altered or doctored coin, if manipulated to look like a more-valuable item, is sometimes referred to as a "counterfeit". For example, somebody cuts away part of the "4" on a 1944-D Lincoln cent, and then attempts to sell it as a rare "1914-D" Lincoln cent. Although some people might call this bogus "1914-D" Lincoln cent a "counterfeit", it is in reality an "altered" coin, not a counterfeit.

What I have been doing is not counterfeiting and it doesn't fit either definition above.

If I take a legal-tender dollar coin, change some aspect of the design (without adding or removing any metal), and the result still looks like a dollar coin, this is not counterfeiting because there has been no change in the apparent face value. Note that I do not recommend anyone attempt to use any of my over-struck coins as legal tender (and why would they if the things cost more than the apparent face value to start with).

I am not altering coins to resemble any item that actually exists. Like it or not, it is LEGAL to deface money. It is, in fact, legal to take a 1944-D cent, push some metal around on it, and turn it into what looks like a "1914-D" cent. But if you then tried to pass it off as a genuine 1914-D cent, while knowing that it wasn't, then that would be a crime (a crime of fraud, but not counterfeiting). My over-struck coins are genuine altered coins, with dates that do not exist. And, of course, I offer these items with full disclosure making it perfectly clear that they are modern over-strikes.

So anyone making the public claim that I am "counterfeiting" should first consider the legal ramifications of making such charges against an individual or company.

Another aspect of this is to consider who, if anyone, is harmed by this activity.
The US government is not harmed. When counterfeit money is introduced into circulation, the net effect is a dilution of the value of all existing currency. This harms the government, as well as everyone else. But what I do does not dilute the value of currency because for every dollar coin I alter, a legal-tender dollar coin is "consumed" in the process. But what about someone years from now paying a high price for one of these over-struck coins ? I don't think this hypothetical scenario will ever play out. Who is going to pay a high price for a coin that has a date that is known to be not a US Mint ptoduct ? Only a knowledgeable collector would, and they would know what they are getting. A novice is not going to pay a high premium for something they know nothing about. Anyone knowingly attempting fraud with one of these over-struck coins is the one and only person that would ultimately be at fault. And who is to say that these over-struck coins couldn't have a high value in the free market in the future ? (I make no such claims, however).

And lastly, some here have lamented that original Morgan silver dollars are lost in the process. While this is basically true, the coins I use are common, of little collector interest, and are usually impaired in some way. I like to use cleaned, polished, worn, and/or damaged coins. Since I am knowledgeable about VAMS, I examine all coins before using them, and any scarcer dates, better VAMS, and/or higher-grade coins are saved. Recently, I was given the opportunity to look through about 1,000 silver dollars to pick out coins to use for over-striking, as well as any coins I'd like to save. Here is a thread at VAMworld where I show the better VAMS that I bought and saved from that lot of 1,000 coins: http://www.vamworld.com/message/view/home/44846918

 

Thank you MR Carr

 

+1 Thank you. Mr. Carr.

 

It's always nice to hear the true facts from someone who has done his homework. I for one have always appreciated and admired DC's contribution to the field of numismatics and U.S. coinage.

 

One other point to follow up on ...

The question was asked, what is the difference between what I do and what some Chinese counterfeiters are doing ?

Here are some of the differences :

The Chinese usually use cheap metal with no silver content for their "silver" dollar fakes. Their production cost is low enough that they could manufacture the coins, spend them at face value, and still make a profit (this is the traditional definition of counterfeiting). I only strike over existing coins of the same denomination, no metal is added or removed, and so the end result has exactly the same metallic content as the original.

The Chinese usually have low-quality engravings, and they produce both existing date and mint mark combinations, as well as non-existant (non sensical) dates & mintmarks ("1846-CC" Seated Liberty Dollars, for example). When advertised for sale, they usually show an example coin with a "COPY" stamp, but this is a photo editing trick, and the coins delivered are usually not maked "COPY". Often, these Chinese coins are sold with no mention of the fact that they are copies, even when the seller knows what they are (fraud). There are people in the US who have bought large quantities of these cheap fakes and then tried to re-sell them as genuine (fraud). I do not mark mine "COPY" either, but mine are altered genuine coins, make to look like dates that don't exist. I use high-quality accurate engravings. And mine are priced such that nobody buys large quantities of them, but they are widely publicized, so the collecting public knows what they are.

As I improve my techniques, I will continue to provide the numismatic community with diagnostics on how to spot items produced in a similar matter. While I perform my activities in an open manner with full disclosure, there are true counterfeiters out there working to improve their "craft". It has always been a race between the techniques of counterfeiters, and the ability of collectors and authenticators to spot them. By using the latest technologies, and showing collectors and authenticators the results of using such technology, I think they will be better able to spot actual counterfeits that may come along in the future.

And lastly, my over-struck coins are produced in the USA, using a surplus US Denver Mint coin press, by a person that designed coins for the US Mint (NY and RI state quarters). No Chinese maker can claim anything like that.

 

Mr. Carr, I appreciate that you spent the time to come here. Ignore the few self proclaimed "serious numismatists" who seemingly wish to tell the rest of us what is proper, and continue doing what you are doing. There are plenty of us who enjoy what you bring to the hobby.

 

Thanks for chiming in Mr. Carr.

Since Krispy doesn't seem to be able to grasp the intent of my comments and has, in my opinion, overreacted with blind fanaticism, I hope you realize that in no way have I accused you of being a counterfeiter, and I don't support anyone who has made that claim. However, I do support the right of others to be able to express their opinion. Krispy, doesn't see it this way, and so he has chosen to make disparaging remarks about me which is entirely unnecessary. We have a difference of opinion. That's all!

​

The fact that I chose to use the word "inspiration" should not automatically imply that you are conspiring with the counterfeiters. Heck, if that were the case, then companies like Intel, Gucci, AutoDesk, Levi's and a whole slew of others who have had their products copied in the Orient would be equally as guilty. It's unfortunate that some people look upon certain products and marvel at their designs while others look upon them merely as a way to cheat others out of their hard-earned money.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of misusing one word, "start", when I should have used "continue".

Oh, and for the record, the Rhode Island SQ happens to be one of my favorite designs. Unlike others that are unable to convey a cohesive theme into one view, the simplicity of the sailboat on the water is totally representative of the Ocean State.

Chris

 

Not inerested in Counterfeited coins in any way, shape, or form. It bad for the industry. I am also curious as to how much you are selling those for? I think I saw something similar on an infomercial.

 

"removed by author"

 

Did you even take time to read the thread and Mr. Carr's responses?

Your comments are factually incorrect, insulting, and libelous.

 

You, my friend, are so misinformed. Please educate yourself before posting such comments as these. Learn the definition of counterfeit, and read some of the previous posts.

 

*sigh I can be pretty outspoken, but come on; even with the off dates who is to say whoever buys these coins won't sell them to unsuspecting buyers. On another note if someone can make these coins with such precision, who is to say that someone else won't make them with the correct dates? Surely he is not the only one with the ability to make such coins. With no copy mark I might add. "Libelous," raider you sound like a defense attorney.

 

Daniel,
Glad you showed up to once again defend your business and creativity. It's a shame you have to but that's the way of the world, at least here on this forum. It seems like every time someone brings up one of your coins in a positive manner, somebody else starts throwing around the word "counterfeiter" and saying stupid things. Glad you showed up to shut some of them up. Just for the record, I buy your coins and I will continue to buy them.

It's a shame that some of the older guys here are teaching the younger ones that what you do is "counterfeiting" when it's just not true. I buy old US coins for their artwork and historical value and secondly to make some money. I buy your coins for basically their artwork and secondly to make some money. Same difference to me, keep doing what you're doing Daniel, it's artistic and you have a ton of buyer's who see it that way.

 

Defense attorneys don't sue,
Ambulance chasers do!

Chris

 

Sigh... we've been through this all before. Please do your research.

 

The whole "unsuspecting buyer" scenario has already been addressed by Mr. Carr:

I couldn't agree with him more, and as I stated earlier, if someone down the line was conned with one of Carr's overstrikes they could just have easily been conned with any coin. The problem would be the person taking advantage of people, not Mr. Carr's coins. Now does Mr. Carr potentially have the ability to re-strike real coins, yes, but so does the U.S Mint, but I'm not worried about them doing it either.

 

Stop exaggerating! Read the title of the thread. The OP stated, "some will love it, (some) will hate it." He anticipated there would be some discussion of the pros and cons.

Chris

 

Outstanding. Raider and you were saying? BTW no seasoned veteran has to teach me the value of a historical U.S. coin vs. a counterfeit.