Folks, what's all this business about counterfeit coins?

Yes it was a typo, probably happened because I have also seen a real PCGS slab with an altered date 1804 large cent in it as well. It was also altered from an 1803 but a different variety.

 

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I believe that coin was posted on CU recently
It was a gennie slab with an altered date 1803...

 

Hello, I'm new here and this group of posts caught my eye. Since I collect only counterfeits, I felt I could participate and explain my reason for collecting them. First, I collect what is now commonly referred to as "Contemporary Counterfeits", meaning they were made at the time of circulation to be spent at what ever the value of the coin was to purchase goods. I do not collect modern fakes, but we as collectors should understand the collector mentality since we've all probably experienced the puzzled looks of those who don't collect. I prefer to collect coins that were used in colonial and pre-federal America, but will collect any counterfeit if the price is reasonable, to me. The "Redbook" lists several counterfeits, and some costs thousands of dollars....as a matter of fact, countefiet British halfpence and counterfeit Spanish 2 reales can sell for quite a bit more than their genuine counterparts. All Machin's Mills coins are simply counterfeit British halfpence that were made on American soil, which is the reason they usually garner more interest than their British made counterfeit cousins. I've also owned several counterfeit Spanish gold pieces, in various metals. For instance, at one time, platinum was a fairly inexpensive by product of mining, and counterfieters recognized that this heavy cheap metal would be ideal for counterfeiting gold pieces, with just a light gold plate or wash, they would be nearly impossible to distinguish from genuine pieces. Even some of the highly collectable pre-federal state coinages are counterfits. The "Camel Head" variety of New Jersey Copper is an example of a "Contemporary Counterfeit". These were not made to fool collectors, but were made, as I stated earlier, to be spent. While some counterfeiters were simply mom and pop operation or single individuals, there were some sophisticated counterfeiting operations in existance, and although the study most often hits a dead end when trying to find out who made these, (counterfeiters didn't sign their work since the penalty was often death), we can sometimes, by noting design style similarities, and actual die sharing, connect the mystery counterfeiters to several varieties of counterfeits. There is plenty written on counterfeit Bust halves, 2 reales, and even some things written on 8 reales, Spanish gold and British and Irish halfpence, most common under George III, but still fairly common under George II and earlier. Like most things, it can be fairly inexpensive in common lower grades, or extremely expensive, with a few counterfeit halfpence selling for $10-15,000 in recent years. It's a fun and educational hobby, and we all collect for several reasons, and I hope I helped shed some light on why some of us do prefer counterfeits. Steve

 

Steve... why don't you start a new thread "Why I Collect Counterfeits"... tacking an informative post such as yours onto the end of another thread doesn't get the views it should. Welcome to CT!

 

Taxisteve929- that was a wonderful post. I can see why contemporary counterfiets are valued by you and others.

 

Thank you! I'm heading out for the weekend, and just beginning to to figure out how posting works, but will take your advice as soon as the procedures are figured out when I return. I did have time to look through some other posts and this is a fantastic site. I'm surprised it took me so long to find it join! All the best, Steve

 

I think Taxisteve will find that there are a fair number of people that are actually interested in contemporary counterfeits. Especially those that circulated widely. In some eras the counterfeits were so widespread they actually became the circulating coinage of the masses.

 

Hi again, and I definitely have followed the counterfeit people for a few years. Ran my own group for collectors of contemporary counterfeit world coins before taking a hiatus. Although I have a dozen or so bust halves, and of course the book, my biggest interest is in pre-US coinage. During better times, I had well over 1,000 counterfeit George III British and Irish halfpence, and had them categorized, and was heavily involved with a sub colonial coins group of from 20-30 others specializing in organizing these into "families" based on several factors. A very dedicated group!! Unfortunately, due to personal matters, I left numismatics for a while and am just now getting my interest back. I am happy to say, that although many of my coins are gone, I've managed to hold on to what I consider my most important numismatic related items...my colonial coins library. Between 75 and 100 books and plenty of newsletters and catalogs. The fun has always been in the research for me, and I promised myself that no matter what, I would never sell my books, but rather, in the end, donate them to my club to use in the lending library and whatever is not needed could be sold at auction. Managed to wear out a few of those plastic mats wheeling the desk chair back and forth to the book shelves. One thing I would like to say about counterfeits. If you find any and are certain they are of the time of circulation...you will find some well executed, and some that look like a child made them. The crudest designs tend to bring the most interest when selling. I'm sure some people here use some of the online buying/selling services, and if you ever come across a Spanish coin described as "Falsa de epoca", it is being sold as a contemporary counterfeit. Please be aware that many people selling know that contemporary counterfeit coins sell at a good premium, and often will try to sell a modern Chinese fake as a contemporary counterfeit. I studied these heavily for years, and can spot one easily, but in the first few months, made many mistakes. Nothing can take the place of seeing and handling a lot of these to be able to recognize them, and the first step to collecting counterfeits, is logically, to learn the genuine pieces. Once you learn to spot a genuine, you will know what isn't, and from there, you will figure out whether it is modern or older. With colonial coins, the modern fakes generally have perfectly round planchets. But as I said, they are easy to spot.....only if you've seen and handled many over a long period of time. Looking at your user name of Conder101, I'm sure you agree. I love Conder tokens, but know too little about them to even begin to build a collection. Of course, when I'm at a show, and I see one I like, I might buy it if I have the money. But I'm at the mercy of the seller, because I don't know the rarities and values. On the other hand, if I like it, and the seller says $100, and I buy it, to me it was worth the $100. (of course I'll be kicking myself when I find out later that better examples can be had for $25, but.....it goes with my overpaid for coins...which we probably all have a few, but if we educate ourselves, with time, the bad buys become less and less, and the good deals increase)

I rambled a bit, and when I get back, will do a little more reading and less posting. Nice to see what others enjoy. Thanks again!! Steve

 

Funny, that's exactly what the ANA instructors said at a fundamentals of counterfeiting seminar I attended.....Know the genuine article thoroughly and then you will be able to spot a fake.

 

LOL...I never attended, but figured that one out when collecting the fakes. Just makes the most sense. There are several dozen styles and designs of counterfeits....but only a few of the genuine pieces. Rather than first learn the hundred or 200 different counterfeit die varieties of halfpence, it just made much more sense to first learn the few genuine....down to very fine details. Of course, with modern coins and counterfeiters, it is much more scientific than we were at collecting the 18th century counterfeits. I'm not sure if it is Bill Fivaz? I'm sorry if I misspelled his name. I believe he wrote a popular book years ago on the subject, and it included altered coins. I know that with gold and silver, an easy test to perform is specific gravity, and that does tell you something. As far as expensive collector coins that have been counterfeited....thats a different animal than I collect. I find those fakes, many coming out of the east, amoung other areas (if you look back to the 60's, most of the collector coins being counterfeited were not coming out of China...but it escapes me where they were often being brought in from) very depressing. A fear we had in the goups who collect counterfeits is that with the premiums attached to them, it won't be long before you start seeing counterfeits of contemporary counterfeits. All of this fear is because I want to see the next generation be able to fall in love with the same hobby I did. To be able to hold in their hands the same coins I now do, and think of the history behind those coins. When he or she holds that 1804 Cent, I want him to feel the history. Feel what the young boy or girl must have felt holding that coin. Or the adult, with Thomas Jefferson, now president of the infant United States, and reading that on the 1 cent piece, wondering if this new country would last. Wondering if we would lean towards a relationship with France or England. When that kid holds a cheap British half penny that was made into a toy by drilling holes in it (whirligig) I want to see that boy or girl try to make it spin and understand first hand the difference between what we have for toys today and what our forefathers made for their children from what they had. Yep. The Chinese fakes scare me, and hopefully, the ANA, which is the only club large enough, will do what they can to pressure the country to act on preventing these from entering the country. Tough to do with our current economy, but I really hope it can be stopped. Now I REALLY have to run!!!<s> All the best!! steve

 

Welcome to CoinTalk taximan! Very informative post(s) and I enjoyed reading them. Thank you!

Lucy

 

Wow, I didn't know it was so extensive. How to spot a fake of a fake. That's like double secret probation. I can see the interesting history in the contemporary counterfeits though. Like trying to solve a mystery. Thanks for the post.