Folks, what's all this business about counterfeit coins?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by JCB1983, Nov 1, 2011.

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  1. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    I just don't get it. So your telling me that repitable people actually sell and collect counterfeit coins in this industry? Counterfeiting is huge in the sports memorabillia world, and has caused a lot of havok. I don't even buy anything without a COA from a trusted dealer. I thought part of collecting coins was for the history. You know like when you hold that 1828 XF45 Bust half up and see a hint of luster, and you know you are holding a coin that was around when President Andrew Jackson was being inagurated. What the **** good is a Counterfeit Coin? I guess if it's to complete your collection? Collection of what? 30 nice historical coins, and 5 fakes that were made in china 5 years ago? It disturbs me that coin dealers actually sell counterfeit coins at coin shows. I will assure you that in my future, I will never buy, or sell a counterfeit as long as I can help it. I am actually prompted to purchase strickly PCGS at the moment, an it's a real shame, because there are so many nice pieces out there. What are your opinions on the whole counterfeiting thing?
     
    JCB1983, Nov 1, 2011
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  3. 5dollarEdunote

    5dollarEdunote Coin Connoisseur

    It depends what you mean by reputable.

    Also, some people collect counterfeits to study so they know what to watch out for when buying coins in the future. There are also contemporary counterfeits, which are counterfeits not made in China in, for example, the last year, but during the time the authentic coin actually circulated. They were made to fool a shopkeeper, not a collector.

    I wish you could buy a certified coin and not have to worry about the coin being fake, but unfortunantly, PCGS and even NGC slabs, along with the coins inside, are also being counterfeited.
     
    5dollarEdunote, Nov 1, 2011
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  4. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Not to mention that there have been several documented incidents of NGC, PCGS and ANACS slabbing contemporary AND high quality modern counterfeits as genuine.
    The fakes are getting better, the experts are getting older. That is the real problem.
     
    Numismat, Nov 2, 2011
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  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If I understand your question correctly, yes, some do, but not many. It's one thing to know a coin is a counterfeit when you buy it. As for why they do it, some actually collect counterfeits as a niche - a separate part or area of collecting. Others use the fakes to fill a hole because they know they will never be able to afford a genuine example. No great harm in doing that.

    But what happens far more often is that reputable dealers unknowingly buy and sell counterfeits. This occurs because the dealers are fooled by the counterfeit and think it to be a genuine coin. And this is what I see as the real danger. Not only to the collectors who buy them thinking them as genuine coins, but to the hobby itself as a whole. For almost without exception, when the collector finds out the coin he bought he is a fake, he blames the dealer that sold it to him, thinking that the dealer knowingly ripped him off by selling him a fake.

    Well, that certainly happens. There are plenty of unscrupulous dealers out there who commonly, and knowingly, sell fake and altered coins. And these people deserve every bit of the bad reputation they get.

    But there are far more honest and trustworthy dealers who get fooled by the fakes just like the collectors do. And what separates them from the scumbags is that if you show them that the coin they sold you is a fake - they'll give you your money back.

    Too many collectors seem to think that all coin dealers are experts. That they can identify a fake or altered coin every time. Well they can't. As a matter of fact most coin dealers are far from experts ! They over-grade, they under-grade, they can't identify fakes or altered coins. They really don't know much more, if as much, as some collectors do. In fact some collectors know far more than some dealers. And that is why when I hear someone suggest, take it to your dealer and get his opinion - I cringe. Because depending on who your dealer is, that could be the worst thing you could ever do.

    Now that is not to say that there are no dealers who are experts. There most definitely are dealers who are experts. And these are the guys you need to talk to, these are the guys you need to buy coins from. And you find out who those dealers are by talking to other knowledgeable collectors, reading the coin mags (to see who writes articles), reading books (for the authors are often dealers), and by going to coin shows and talking to them. You don't have to talk to somebody for very long to find out if they know what they are talking about or not.

    So when someone says - "It disturbs me that coin dealers actually sell counterfeit coins at coin shows." - you first have to clarify if you are talking about a dealer who knowingly sells counterfeits - or one who unknowingly sells counterfeits.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 2, 2011
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  6. jjack

    jjack Captain Obvious

    But for someone who can't afford to spend lot of $$$ and time it would make sense for them in buy some replica coins on the bay for couple dollars. We live in time of instant gratification...
     
    jjack, Nov 2, 2011
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  7. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Please also take note that dealers often "play the fool" when it comes to counterfeits... and just about anything else really.
     
    Numismat, Nov 2, 2011
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  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That's OK though. For by playing the fool they are admitting their inability to identify a counterfeit, their lack of knowledge. And who wants to buy from a dealer like that ?
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 3, 2011
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  9. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Very true, but some people would still go for it when the price is right. A dealer "discount" in itself is a good red flag that something's off.
     
    Numismat, Nov 3, 2011
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  10. lkeigwin

    lkeigwin Well-Known Member

    Is this one counterfeit? ;)
    Lance.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    lkeigwin, Nov 3, 2011
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  11. lkeigwin

    lkeigwin Well-Known Member

    Sorry...just having a little fun with that '64-D Peace dollar.

    Here's a real counterfeit (hey, that's an oxymoron).
    Lance.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    lkeigwin, Nov 3, 2011
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  12. Hawkwing74

    Hawkwing74 Member

    It seems there are counterfeits these days even the experts can't tell apart? That's what scares me the most about coin collecting.

    When you say there are fake PCGS, does that mean someone put a fake in a PCGS slab or the PCGS experts were also stumped?
     
    Hawkwing74, Nov 4, 2011
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  13. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    It means either the experts were also stumped, or it did not fall into the hands of the proper expert.
     
    Numismat, Nov 4, 2011
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    With US coins it's pretty rare for NGC or PCGS to be fooled and for them to slab a counterfeit. But it has happened and it still does happen. This is a documented fact.

    It happens much more often that collectors and coin dealers, some of them recognized as being very knowledgeable, are fooled into believing that a counterfeit is a genuine coin. I am talking about raw coins here.

    Then there are the counterfeiters who not only make the fake coins, they also make fake NGC and PCGS slabs and put the fake coins in the fake slabs. These fool even more collectors and dealers. But they do not fool NGC or PCGS.

    And if you consider world coinage, then the occurrence of NGC and PCGS slabbing a counterfeit increases, meaning it happens a lot more often than it does with US coins. Even so, it is still pretty rare for it to happen, but it does happen.

    All of these things are documented facts.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2011
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  15. BUncirculated

    BUncirculated Well-Known Member

    That's as fake as they come.
     
    BUncirculated, Nov 4, 2011
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  16. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    Hey I didn't mean to stir up any dust here, I was just curious. I have been a collector of some form or fashion as early as I can remember. In the sport memorabilia world, you don't get anything without a COA. The COA better come from a reputable source. I guess when I first started seeing counterfeit coins on ebay, I thought it was a joke. Is it true PCGS backs their grading up with a money back guarentee? Thanks
     
    JCB1983, Nov 4, 2011
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Stirring up the dust gets people talking - that's a good thing. And no, counterfeits are no joke. It has become a quite elaborate business. Until just a few years ago nobody had to worry about fake slabs. There were a few back in '88 when the TPGs first started, but there hadn't been any since then. Not until '08 I think it was.

    And yes, the TPG's have a money back guarantee. But, the TPG is the one who decides how much the coin was worth.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2011
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  18. lkeigwin

    lkeigwin Well-Known Member

    How can you tell? Did you compare it to a real one?
    Lance.
     
    lkeigwin, Nov 5, 2011
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  19. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    If he did, then slap the handcuffs on him. =)

    Is that one the sold out Daniel Carr designed pieces?
     
    Numismat, Nov 5, 2011
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  20. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Close, the first recent fake ANACS slabs showed up in March of 2007, the NGC's in August of 2007 and the PCGS in February 2008.

    And as mentioned the big services do get fooled from time to time. Just recently I helped someone by identifying a fake 1804 large cent in a genuine NGC slab (Actually the coin was real, it was an 1803 S-260 with an altered date.) PCGS missed it when they slabbed it and a major dealer also missed it when they bought it and resold it. NGC has since repurchased the slab.
     
    Conder101, Nov 5, 2011
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  21. lkeigwin

    lkeigwin Well-Known Member

    Thanks again for the help on that fake 1804, Conder. "PCGS" is a typo in the post above, correct? You mean NGC.
    Lance.
     
    lkeigwin, Nov 5, 2011
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