Very true. "The customer is always right" is a catchy little phrase to tell your employees to get them friendlier and treat customers better. Its a popular saying to get your store managers to repeat often so your employees do not act like the customers are bothering them. It has no bearing in true economics of business, and it sure as heck has no bearing in reality, where in my experience the customer is wrong most of the time, (almost always to his benefit, funny how that works out).
The opposite of the customer being right, is that the customer is wrong, that they are taking advantage, they are being manipulative, etc.. The question is which business? With numismatics, honest judgments have to be made by both dealer and customer. Dealers who buy and sell a lot of raw coins have only the marketplace as the ultimate judge, and whether the customer has bought and read the book before the coin, gotten independent assessments of a coin before buying, a lot easier at a coin show than at auction. I have never ripped-off a customer, my conscience does not allow it. It comes down to values, ethics, right and wrong, full disclosure to the customer. That is why in a case like this the seller should have called the coin "cleaned" as an auction lot with a details grade.
Perhaps the seller had no idea the coin had been cleaned. Apparently, the buyer didn't detect it. And for all we know, NCS didn't either, or they might not have conserved it.
You are assuming, without evidence, that the seller know it was cleaned. Yet the buyer didn't recognize it, Heritage didn't recognize it, and NCS didn't recognize it until after it was "conserved". If the seller didn't know it had been cleaned would it be OK to sell it without disclosing that it had been cleaned? Or should he call every coin cleaned just in case some day it is discovered that it has been?
I would just state that the basic standards that PNG requires of its members should be operative: [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]1)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]Not misrepresent rarity, value or quality of items sold. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]2)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]Not use high-pressure sales tactics. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]3)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]Never knowingly buy or sell stolen items, and assist authorities in the recovers of such items. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]4)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]Not sell counterfeit, altered or repaired items without full disclosure to the buyer. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]5)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]Not misrepresent the investment potential of the item(s) being sold. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]6)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]Pay reasonable prices and pay promptly for items purchased from clients. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]7)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]Promptly deliver items sold to clients. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]8)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]Do their best to educate their clients or direct them to resources. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]9)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #e2e2e2"]Give research and information to clients about items they purchase or inquire about, when requested. [/TD] [TD="class: blueBold14, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]10)[/TD] [TD="class: regularField, bgcolor: #ccaf57"]Submit to the PNG arbitration in any unresolved dispute and abide by the arbitrators' decision. http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=18 [/TD]
The buyer had a period of time to inspect the coin before returning it intact for a refund. He failed to do that, and I don't know any dealer who would allow the contract to cover submission to NCS with a favorable result part of that deal. I once bought an early gold coin with a one month return privilege. I sent it to NGC on express tier for grading and it was body bagged as "cleaned" and "tooled". I returned it to the dealer and he refunded me less $250 which was the deal.
OK lets say they are operative, does it change anything? Probably not. The only one that might apply would be number four and once again you would have to prove the seller knew it was altered.
OK, as this has provoked debate I'll jump in again. My angst is now less directed at NCS and more to the seller but NCS slabbed details when clearly asked not to, were asked to remove the organic material and did not/could not. The seller points to his membership of professional bodies and his great expertise with with coins gained over many years and with such claims comes responsibility. His comment to me that he 'just buys and sells coins as they 'appear' is a pathetic excuse for selling harshly cleaned doctored coins incorrectly described. If it appears to be, or is made to look like a silk purse but turns out to be a sow's ear it's OK for the hobbyist to take 100% of the financial hit on the body bagged coin. Before more folks offer to defend this poor ususpecting seller I have found out they have 'form.'
I don't think anybody is defending him, least of all me. What I and the others are trying to say is this. The coin was doctored in such a way that no one could tell it was a problem coin. Everybody was fooled. You just happened to be standing at the end of the line. Now that is truly bad luck for you, and I hate to see it happen to you. But you couldn't see that it was a problem coin. Heritage couldn't see it was a problem coin. NCS couldn't see it was a problem coin. And nobody would even know that it is a problem coin, if you had not sent it in to NCS. Anyway you want to look at this - it is just plain bad luck. Everybody was fooled, it happens. Undoubtedly the person who is at fault here is whoever it was that doctored the coin. But nobody knows who that person is.
But shouldn't this be handled like a forgery, where it should get returned up the chain? This way the person who doctored the coin is the holder of the loss. Chris
Doctoring a coin is not the same as counterfeiting one. The latter is against the law, while the former is not.
So dealers do not extend unlimited return privileges for proven doctored coins? I am not disagreeing with you, I would simply think that such a proven alteration would be handled similarly as a false coin. I am a little surprised its not. Chris P.S. I thought altering a coin, (car, etc), hiding damage and representing its not damaged was common fraud. That would be illegal as well.
18 months is too long to expect the dealer to readily accept it. But if he has any ethical consideration at all and I assume he does with his stated credentials he should be following this up on his end because his reputation is involved and he should care this never happens again. That said, I believe NCS did the right and proper job. They uncovered a harshly cleaned and ' doctored' coin. Otherwise said coin might still be believed to be unadulterated and very valuable. I have to ask Marbury which he would prefer to have happen. To live in ignorance is not bliss no matter what you think. He has to thank his lucky stars he didn't sell it and then it was found to be damaged. It may be a very expensive lesson but there are positives to this situation. Maybe Buck's coins can find who they bought it from etc. But this doctoring could have been done years and years ago making it just about untraceable. If it were me I'd live with it and kick myself.
I understand they are different issues, but to me are linked since either way the not is not an undamaged, authentic coin I thought it was. Interesting. I am again not disagreeing sir, just curious. So if I buy a coin from a dealer and later find it was puttied, I have no recourse? Personally I would be quite upset at such an occurence. Same as if I bought an ancient and a few weeks later discovered it was AT green patina covering damage. If dealers do not accept returns for these types of issues, (which I would have thought they did), to me buying from a dealer has lost a little of its value. Chris
It is my understanding that you would have no legal recourse in such a case, and that is even if you somehow knew the seller was the one who had puttied it.
I would say it depends on the dealer as to whether he would accept such a return or not. And a customer's relationship with a dealer may also have an impact. But Mark is right, there is no legal requirement, as there is with counterfeits, that they accept such a return. I also think that the time frame involved would play a very large part. For instance, if Marbury had bought the coin and then immediately sent it in to NCS and the coin was returned as it is, there are some respected dealers who might accept a return in that situation. By the same token there are some who would not simply because of the risk involved when you dip a coin. They all know this. Example, dealer A buys a coin from dealer B. Dealer A then dips the coin, find out he doesn't like it and attempts to return it to dealer B. Dealer B of course refuses to accept the return because dealer A dipped the coin. Well that's exactly what happened here. And the fact that conservation was attempted completely changes everything - because of the known risk that conservation entails. I think the thing that we have to remember here is this. When Marbury bought the coin he bought it knowing full well the coin had those dark spots and he accepted those dark spots being there. This is a key point. So given that, Marbury had no basis for returning this coin at that time. Also, he stated that his intended purpose in sending the coin to NCS was to remove those dark spots. And it was only by NCS attempting to remove those spots that everything else came to light. And in that situation I suspect that most dealers would not accept a return. Nor should they, because of the risk involved with conservation.
Numismatic Conservation Service What I have learned by a number of NCS submissions is that occasionally they help you in money terms, but just as often you will come out a loser if you submit to them without thoroughly assessing the coin before you send it. PVC, fire damaged collections and coins with ugly toning can be improved and *may* be worth the money. I saw an NGC representative at a recent show, I had some gold coins that had been assessed by an expert as nice MS coins. He said that the valuable coin had a spot that could be removed and that it "might spread" if not removed, so it would probably no grade. After charging me around $250 for the two generic coins, the spot was not removed, and the grade gave the coin no real increase in value. So I would say do not submit to NCS unless the coins have serious surface problems, especially valuable coins. They were running at six weeks or so last I checked, unless you want to pay the extra $50 express fee. Do your own coin improvement with acetone for PVC, etc., before you get the coin submitted to PCGS or NGC. Maybe find a local coin club or dealer expert to help you on this. The original poster was left with a washed out looking coin and a lot more frustrated and poorer. Had nothing been done to the coin, just the 1% assessment, and done right, the OP would have had somewhere to go with the coin to sell it. Not now.
But don't you get it Owle ? With some coins, it is impossible, even for experts, to make such an assessment. The OP's coin was one of those coins. There is no way anybody could look at that coin and know that it would be a mistake to try and conserve it. That is precisely why there is always a risk when you try to conserve a coin. As to your other comments, yes I agree 100% that coins should always be carefully evaluated before you ever send them to NCS. I would even go on as to say that the majority of coins sent in to NCS, never should have been sent in the first place. But that is because the people sending them do not know how to evaluate them correctly. Most folks who send coins to NCS are expecting some kind of magic to happen. They expect a sow's ear to somehow be turned into a silk purse. But there is no magic ! There is only luck. Sometimes that sow's ear turns out looking pretty good. But other times it turns out looking like a beat up sow's ear, instead of just a sow's ear. It's kind of like sending coins in for grading. A collector sends his favorite coin to the TPG thinking most assuredly will it graded as MS65. But when he gets the coin back it comes in a Details holder.
