The Proper Way To Collect - MUST READ THREAD

I want to discuss something with you about grading, and how you choose pieces to buy. It will change the way you collect. It is a must for the serious numismatist.

The 70 point scale system is not sufficient for an expert collector. In reality there are dozens, maybe hundreds of inbetween grades. The 70 point scale is for businessmen to easily put a label on their coins, without having to write paragraphs about the coin in order to sell it. So they round it off to a nice number, which is a terrible way for an expert to look at things, and we here are experts. It is like selling a used car and telling the buyer that the car "runs well." There are many degree of "running well." And the prospective buyer should look under the hood before he buys. Furthermore, the "expert" who is grading may not be such an expert. An axiom from here on in is that we do not trust the grading of any other individual other than ourselves.

So from now on, you are not collecting based on a 70 point scale. Instead, you are going to be an expert, and pick certain features on a coin you are looking for.

You are not looking to buy an XF Barber Half. You are looking for a Barber Half with a complete headband. You are looking for full wing tips, full lines on the shield. You are examining the rim to see that there are zero rim nicks. Maybe you will find one small rim nick acceptable. That is your choice. Maybe you are looking for a clean cheek.

If you are assembling a Seated Quarter set, maybe you will seek out a full liberty. Full rims on both sides. You get the idea.

You are no longer rounding off on a 70 point scale. The "expert" graders WILL NEVER get it right all the time. There will be variability in grading, and the 70 point system itself is flawed.

Write down on a piece of paper the features that you are looking for. Learn them well, and then go inspect the coin you are looking to buy. Determine the price you are willing to pay for a coin with features that you desire. Disregard the "grade" that the coin dealer puts on his holder. If you can get it for the price you are willing to pay, then his grading opinion doesn't matter.

This is the key to collecting, and the end of limitless arguing over third party grading. And you will be an expert in your field. And you will be more confident in the coins that you do hold in your collection.

That's enough for now.

 

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...or you could learn the TPG standards, learn to grade by them, make offers to purchase your coins based upon them like the industry that sells them does.

I can see what you're trying for, early, and that's to get people to stop thinking of things inside of the TPG grading box, and that's commendable. I think that people need to learn to be able to grade coins for themselves instead of relying on a TPGs grade. People need not "disregard the grade", but rather learn to evaluate a coin on their own (by the TPG standards) and assign their own grade, and then buy accordingly. If you don't understand the TPG standards, you will never know whether the seller wants too much or too little because you won't understand his or her grade in order to compare it to your own.

We constantly preach: "Buy the coin, not the slab" and to a large extent that's what you're proposing here. We understand that using the Sheldon scale is less than perfect, but it gives us all a meter on which to equally evaluate. A dealer may call a coin, Choice XF, and if I know what I am grading, I may think it to be an over-graded VF, but if we don't start with the same scale, I have no idea what he is grading it and therefore know nothing about what he expects me to pay. The system may be flawed, but it at least gives us all a common nomenclature.

 

I think you and I are in agreement for the most part. My only rebuttal is that the TPG's do not follow their own standards. In reality you can set 50 of the same date and mintmark side by side and you will notice the flaws in TPG grading, no doubt about it.

You are also not guaranteed to have someone grade your coin that knows the series and understands which dates have striking problems. The entire system is flawed, yet it can be fixed by the collector, if he collects at a higher level.

You are handing out hard earned money for your investment, it deserves your full attention when observing the coin.

 

Or, optionally, you could buy coins you enjoy owning and sharing with others, and roll your eyes at those who propose to dictate to you how you should collect.

 

There is no "proper" way to collect. There is no "must" to collecting. Each collector has his or her own preferences and style.

The only hard and fast rule of collecting that is "proper" and that "must" be adhered to is: collect what makes you happy!

 

The problem is that many collectors are happy for a while, until they find out what they really own, then they are not so happy anymore

 

Still, who has any right to tell others that their way is the only way?

 

There are many ways to collect, but not all of them are optimal for the hobby in general.

 

I see what you are saying Mike, and its pragmatic advice, yet sad at the same time. You did not say "learn ANA standards", or "learn commonly accepted standards", but specifically TPG standards.

TPG standards are set based upon what is best for TPG, and will be changed if it benefits TPG. Where is the collector in that statement? Already its impossible to really dispute a grade since they are the ones who determine what the grading guidelines are.

Again, I am not saying pragmatically you are not right Mike, but from a collector who started before TPG were in existence, makes me sad as to what has happened. I am glad I switched to ancient where we have our own standards, completely ignore Sheldon's antiquated scale.

Chris

 

An individual dictating a set of standards, documented nowhere, published by no industry authors or periodicals, warning those who don't follow them that they'll be unhappy later, proposes to suggest what is "optimal for the hobby".

ointnlaugh:

 

Doesn't this presume I'm interested in playing whatever "game" this is to begin with?

 

I understand a good part of what everyone is saying, but isn't it more basic ?

I mean, sometimes you just see one you like. You don't grade it or even understand why you like it, but you do. It's like the computer in your brain overrides everything. Like falling in love for the first time. Maybe it's not even a wise purchase, but you do it anyway. You really cannot help yourself.

That is the coin you keep looking at. Going back to, etc. It makes part of the heart of your collection. Maybe it's one you wanted forever, or something you just happened to see ? Regardless, you felt you had to have it.

That, to me, is a good part of what this hobby is about. Of course, as a business, it doesn't make good sense. But it sure adds to the fun.


gary

 

Sometimes, it is all about love. Or, at least, infatuation.

Collecting may be much easier and much more rewarding if you never have to worry about how much you're spending or getting for the next coin you buy or sell. For those of us who do "have to ask", though, the Sheldon scale does set the framework for pricing, and we ignore it at our peril.

 

I guess maybe I get what the OP was trying to say. I do have my own set of grading standards, and they seem for the most part to be a lot more strict than those employed by the TPG's or ANA. I look for certain things on a coin that I want to be there as well as a certain eye appeal. No third party grade sways my opinion one way or another. Of course, for me, grade isn't the god of my collecting experience as it seems to be for most. Substance over-rules grade all day long in my book, and despite what some will say, substance is not grade.
Guy

 

So...um....

Buy the coin, not the slab?

 

If you learn to grade on your own, you can buy undergraded coins in TPG slabs at a decent price. I have even posted some coins on CT and asked opinions on grade as well. If the consensus is a 65 but the slab says 64, I am happy to pay the 64 price for it. TC

 

Ok... stop yourself for a second and think about what you just said...

You may at some time become a higher level collector at a specific series if you study hard and become very experienced at it, but for the most part (and this is a generalization, I know) the TPG graders are some of the most experienced and knowledgeable people in the industry. Many collectors will never gather 1/10 of the knowledge that some of these graders have, let alone retain it all. People like Mark Feld (a member here on CT) or Randy Campbell (and other TPG graders) will be wrong far less often than you think.

I agree with Doug that you need your own personal standards to use in conjunction with the TPG standards and I failed to mention that, but we were talking about acquiring coins for a collection and that involves buying them. You need to know if the coin you are examining is under-priced, over-priced, or accurately priced and base your buying decision accordingly. At that point the market is an influence in your decision and the current market is dominated by the TPG rules, so you'd better know them if you want to buy wisely.

 

depends really which coin you want, if for instance you find a french 1 liard in good condition and you really want the coin then there is no harm buying it to add to your collection until you find a better example.

in the bank of england museum some of the very early exhibits (1680) are quite poor and most collectors would not want them in their collection because they are not pristine, but as they are ultra rare then any example is collectable regardless of condition. i always become extremely suspicious if i see some ancient and medieval coins offered in unc grades as there are some extremely good copies by the likes of trevor ashmore which have even fooled the most dilligent of collectors.
so really grade isn't that important when compared to rarity.

hope this makes sense......................