Thoughts Please

I sold a coin to a dealer after he examined it on two separate occasions. He made an offer, I made a counter, the second time we settled on a price. It was a raw coin, I never represented it as being any specific grade or condition.

A few days later he called me, saying that someone at a coin show had declared the coin a fake. Wanted his money back. I did not agree to return his money without any evidence, so we agreed that he would send the coin off to PCGS.

Time passes, he calls me back with the news that the coin is genuine. I figure we are good.

Not good enough for him though. Now he wants to return the coin because he says that it has been cleaned.

Seems to me, he had two occasions to examine the coin, actually a full 24 hours to examine it as I left it in his possession for a full day before he bought it. I think that was plenty of time for him to figure out the condition of the coin. It also seems to me that if there is damage to the coin, it could have certainly been caused while it was in his ownership, especially given that he believed it to be a fake.

He says that in the coin business it's normal to allow returns like he wants to do. I can't say that I know much about the coin business, but it seems awful strange to me that sales from collectors to dealers aren't final. I don't think he would call me and give me extra money if a coin ended up being better than he judged it to be when he bought it. We certainly never discussed return policies when we made our deal.

My question is, am I justified in refusing to take the coin back?

 

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Yes sir you are justified. If the coin was a fake, he had every right to return it to you in my eyes. However, he is trying to make a profit from you by having it graded, well you never represented this raw coin that it would grade, or what grade, he is a professional, so you have every right to decline the return.

Chris

 

I second Chris's post.

This guy seems to be weaseling his way, definitely not what you expect from a professional.

He will quickly learn that even if you eat an occasional loss, you bite into that Deleted!! You have enough time on the forum to know better! sandwich with a smile, because that keeps people coming back.

It's safe to say you would not deal with this guy again, and thus any future profit he could have possibly made from dealing with you is erased before he even has the chance.

Edit: Sorry about that, should have said edited instead. =) - no, you shouldn't have said that either

 

Agreed^

 

Yeah, what they said...

And, Welcome to CoinTalk! Tell us what you like to collect. After you solve this problem of course.. This is a very helpful site.

Lucy

 

Overlander you were being way to nice with the dealer. You gave him plenty of time to examine the coin and once money has been exchanged. I believe it's a done deal.

 

I agree the dealer has to stay with the deal. Approvals in coin business and "memos" in the gemstone business are common between trusted dealers, but that is done before exchanging money. After the chance to personally eyeball it and money passes, it is done.

Jim

 

I don't make a living dealing in coins of course. But it seems to me that someone who represents himself as a professional and makes an offer to buy has made a contract. Once the coin is delivered and the guy takes possession of it, it's HIS. He can do whatever he wants to with it. Have it cleaned, graded burnt, buried, sell it, whatever. He is the person with the knowledge.

What I would do might depend on how much he gave me for the coin. But, I will say this. First he accused you of fraud, by telling you it was fake. That proved untrue. Now he's saying it was cleaned. OK, by whom ? Did he dip it to try and get a better grade ? Most very old coins have been cleaned at some point anyway.

Still, if you have the money, you might consider taking the coin back..............less 20% restocking fee, since that is normal in the business also. And get him out of your life. Not all battles are worth fighting and this is a waste of your time and energy. IMHO

gary

 

The well-established legal concept is "custom and practice of the trade", under which contracts between dealers in specific goods may sometimes be implied to contain provisions which aren't expressly set forth.

Your dealer's problem, however, is that since you aren't a coin dealer, you are not bound by custom and practice, even if he's right about what's "normal" in the coin business. (Perhaps Lost Dutchman or one of our other dealer-members can verify whether or not returns really are customary in your situation.)

Bottom line - tell him GPS!*







* "Go Pound Salt", not "Global Positioning Satellite."

 

Someone who wants to be a coin dealer for the long run needs to realize two things:

1. You will sometimes lose money on what you buy. Whether it be due to bullion price fluctuations or simply a bad on-the-spot decision, it will happen. A good coin business thrives on having a lot more good buys than bad ones. Thinking you can get 100% good buys every time over a prolonged period is outright delusional, unless you believe in psychic powers (I don't).

2. Some collectors know more than you do... (see paragraph above).

 

I want to say thank you to each of you who took the time to answer. I appreciate your advice.

Lucy: I guess that I'm not a very focused collector. When I was much younger I just bought those coins that somehow 'spoke' to me, if that makes any sense. I can say though that my favorite coins are 2.5 and 10 dollar gold Indians. They seem to consistently hold the most interest for me.

I've always been a buyer, this is actually my first foray into the selling side of things. Unfortunately the dealer I mainly dealt with for many years has left the business. When it came time to sell I talked with a couple local dealers, I liked this fellow but obviously I made a poor choice.

Gary: It is my fear as well that the 'cleaning' took place at either his hand or the hand of whomever told him that it was a fake. It seems to me that one would not use much care with a coin that one didn't think was real. He certainly never mentioned any concern that it was 'cleaned' while looking at it and negotiating for it.

 

In my experience, the refund rule only applies with people that you have a running business relationship with. And usually the refund courtesy is only given in order to keep that ongoing business.

That being said, it's very different when not dealing in person. Some of the people I deal with regularly basically send me pictures of coins they get and I make an offer based on that. Sometimes the pictures aren't the best, and occasionally there turn out to be unexpected problems with the coins. In this case a post-examination return is completely normal. But when dealing this way one should also be fair when the coin turns out better than expected, and compensate the owner justly.

 

If you sold the coin to him and he made a profit off that coin could you call him back and say you want the coin back? Once a deal is made that's it. You owe him nothing.

 

Ah but if the tables were turned and you looked at the coin on 2 different occasions and it turned out to be fake, you'd be howling up a storm on how dirty low down rotten crook he is. Now if he tried cleaning it and pooched it up then to bad so sad.

 

+1

 

If you can't tell that it's fake from two viewings, then you best not be dealing in those types of coins. =)

 

Maybe after he had the coin checked or graded hes now learned he has more in the coin and he will want you to pay him plus the gradeing that was done.
Cant belive anyone would grade or check a coin for free.

 

Had the coin turned out to be a fake, you would have been expected to give him his money back, but that is now a moot point since it was confirmed to be genuine by PCGS.

The problem you must consider is whether or not you wish to continue doing business with that dealer. If it is unlikely that you will, considering his conduct in this case, then I see no reason why you should be expected to give him a refund. He never expressed any concern about it being a problem coin, and he is supposed to be the professional.

On the other hand, if you hope to develop a relationship with this dealer, you might want to negotiate a refund excluding the cost of the submission since the sole reason for submitting the coin was to determine if it was fake or not. Forget about the restocking fee that was mentioned in another post. You aren't a dealer, and personally, I usually have a low opinion of those dealers who do use this scam. Yes, I call it a scam because it is mainly use for the sole purpose to avoid returns.

Chris

 

There was a thread just like this last year, so I guess this is not an uncommon incident. I also agree that this is part of the risk of being a coin dealer. If nothing was agreed upon upfront regarding returns, etc., then he/she will have to write off the loss and hopefully learn from the experience. TC

 

I can tell you this is NOT a common practice in the business. If the coin was fake the dealer has a legal right to ask you for the return of the money in exchange for the coin. If that is even ethical or not is for another thread all together. If you are in this business... you should know better.

It sounds like he is having buyers remorse from the other side of the table/counter. You have no legal obligation to return the money. It sounds like this guy has NO idea what he is doing.

What was the coin out of curiosity?