I sent two coins to the States, one to NGC and one to NCS. I wanted some organic spots removed from quite an expensive coin. My coin, an 1821 Crown had a lovely dark gun metal patina and had no other visible problems. I will post photo. I received it back today and it now appears bleach white with all the patina gone and scratched to h*** and the organic spots still visible. Before: After:
I don't believe NCS would use any process that would cause those scratches. My guess is that the scratches were already on the coin, and they were covered up by the toning. Once NCS dipped the coin, it removed the toning and revealed the scratches.
Obviously if the appearance of the coin is pretty much ruined not much point sending, esp if they leave the organic material on.....certainly didn't want it dipped anyway.
Raider34 beat me to the post. I'm sorry to see the results of your coin's conservation. I guess that sometimes a coin just blows up on NCS when they are trying to conserve it. Please accept my condolences & commiseration of your experience.
This isn't the first time that NCS has conserved an expensive coin only to discover that the "patina" was laid on intentionally to hide the problems beneath it. Have you discussed this with NCS? If not, you might want to contact Dave Camire. Then, if you should learn that what I said wasn't for from wrong, you might want to contact the person who sold it to you. Chris
Thanks for all these informative replies. I have contacted NCS/NGC through their online form but no reply. I don't expect a reply as my previous e-mails through the web form went unanswered. In terms of the person who sold it to me, firstly it was quite some time ago, secondly it was on e-bay and I have already given feedback 18 months or so ago. I imagine I'd be told to get lost. I did not want the coin dipped in anyway and stipulated I only wanted the organic material removed, which they failed to do. I'll probably have to chalk this up to experience but it's an expensive mistake and I would not send another coin to NCS period. Staff on their customer service have no clue about your coin, what you've asked for or not asked for and do not seem to have communication with the people actully doing the work. That is not my opinion, that's what they told me.
Agree with the other posters, the patina was hiding the hairlines on the coin. NCS would not do that to a coin.
Now I've calmed down a bit, I accept that NCS wouldn't take something abrasive and ruin my coin. However, I did not want, in fact expressly instructed them not to dip it. Only remove the organic material. So they dipped it and left the organic material. Plenty of blame all round: Me: clearly too trusting and stupid buying from e-bay. NCS: enough said.
Honestly, what else did you expect them to do - other than dipping the coin ? There isn't anything else they can do. Dipping, in one way or another, is the only conservation method there is. As for the spots not coming off, that's a shame. But I'd pretty much guarantee you that once they saw what happened when the surface toning came right off, they stopped right there because they knew any more dipping would only make it worse. It seems to me that at some point this coin was artificially toned purely to cover up all the hairlines and make the coin sellable. It could easy be that the person you bought the coin from, was fooled just like you were. Or, they could be they are the guilty party. But you'll never know the answer to that.
$150 for dipping a coin must be pretty good work but I won't be repeating it. As I said I didn't want it conserved, dipped and wrote this down, common sense might have provoked them to contact me if all they have is a mono dimensional procedure. Customer service and 'conservers' don't communicate with each other according to them so I'm sure people doing the work have no idea what the customer wants anyway. I also stipulated not to slab it but they ignored that too....still it broke nice and easily in my hand, so that was helpful.
Wow, sorry hearing about that.. I like the before image actually... though in hand it must have looked different for you...
When you call NCS chances are you will speak to Danielle Caffrey, who is very helpful. Most numismatic professionals are on Linked-in or Facebook, etc. where you can check out their hundreds of friends and assoiciates. I have submitted quite a few coins to NCS inspite of having been royally ripped by how they worked on a mint state High Relief and charged me $1000 for the service. I keep sending coins in and occasionally I get a really good result, mainly with PVC issues and the like. I would also assume that what happened here is that they removed problem toning--something they are very reluctant to do; also they do not work on altered surfaces coins.
The gun metal dark toning was beautific, not a problem, but clearly turned out not to be real. I wouldn't expect them to work on problem surfaces becuase there were none, until I found out the coin was badly scratched had filed rims too! Let's wait and see what the seller does in terms of this deception. It was also interesting to see that the coin fooled Heritage Auctions in Dallas who valued the coin from high res photos quite some time ago at $2,000. Thanks for all the posts folks.
A dealer in the know told me they use "Jeweler Luster" dip at high temps for most coins. It would be nice to get a phone call or email on options on any given coin instead of the preremptory assumption that they are totally in charge once you send the coin to them and you have no say in the matter. I guess they are trying to avoid arguments after a botched job like this.
I hear you and agree. Yet although they (NCS) don't seem to be good listeners in terms of what the customer wants, you can't get away from the fact that what was uncovered once the toning had gone was the most dreadful scratched surfaces. Furthermore, the coin was also tooled! Filed rims. So with the scratches and filed rims I'm left with a coin that is worth less that 25% what I paid for it. The seller is Chris Taylor of Bucks Coins on e-bay and the police are now involved as he refused to take the coin back. Describing and passing off a coin as problem free and extremely fine when it is neither is a crime in the UK and I'm glad the police are taking the matter so seriously.
People without business ethics need to be held to account. Here is PNGs code of ethics: http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=6 There are many other such business standards that are somewhat less stringent. I'm glad you are following legal process for your sake and that of the next customer. Don't get mad get even, legally.
18 months later? So you received it,inspected it, and it apparently fooled you, and fooled Heritage. It probably fooled him as well, but after 18 months and after having had the piece materially altered (I know you didn't intend to have it stripped) you expect him to refund? Sorry, but I would probably have told you no as well. Unless you can return it to him in the same condition it was in when you received it.
I have agree with Conder on this. As a seller I allow about 30 days to pass as the refund period. After that it's your coin as you had PLENTY of time to inspect it. This problem is akin to buying a coin at a certain grade, sending it to a TPG and it comes back lower, then expecting a refund because you paid too much.
That is a long time to wait before taking action; any business has a right to deny some recourse unless it is clear based on contracts or assumed contracts. Coin dealers are not running charities or museums purely for the enjoyment of others. The way to handle problem cases is communication in respectful terms unless or until he/she refuses to be reasonable. While getting lost money back may be impossible after long passage of time, there should be a way to let sellers know that their sources of material may be questionable. I just wish there were some way to have problem coins pulled out of the hobby permanently; they become the source of endless trouble.
