I was wondering how the world coin collectors get the values for the (graded) coins. The U.S. collectors have all kinds of resources to find values (estimates), like PCGS, NGC, numismedia, etc.. What do the world coin collectors do to find values for PCGS and NGC (or other) graded coins? I know the Krausse book doesn't cover anything over uncirculated. I have tried looking at Heritage past auctions and completed eBay auctions, but I just can't seem to find a good reference. For my particular case, I am searching for Germany Empire 1/2 and 1 mark slabbed coin values. Thanks, greg
I usually do a Google search in addition to searching on Heritage. There are several auction houses that sell world coins other than Heritage and these will show up in Google searches (e.g. Stacks, DNW, etc). Searching on eBay and clicking the "completed listings" button really only works for more common items (e.g., the 1913 centennial 2 mark and 3 mark coins show up often enough that you can usually see what one sold for recently on eBay). For high end slabbed coins in PCGS and NGC plastic, the Krause book can be quite an underestimate to what they will bring at auction. I guess I'm not sure how Krause fills in their estimated values for coins that are almost never on the market. I think you have covered your bases though, and your current practice is about as good as it gets...
Ok, thanks brg. I was hoping there was a chance some website might have tracked these kind of things. Also, are there population reports for PCGS and NGC for MS+ graded world coins?
The population reports from PCGS are mostly free for world coins (but not for U.S. Coins). You can find them here: http://www.pcgs.com/pop/ The population reports for NGC world coins require at least the Associate member status to view ($39 per year). They are found here (if you have a membership and you are signed in): http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/poplookup-world.asp
NGC does have a tool under resources that's free that lists the grade value for world coins. Not sure how far back but I know it goes back as far as the early 1700's because I used it to research my own small foreign collection of coins.
The values in the NGC system are just from the Krause books. It's nice to have them all in one centralized place so as not to need to carry around my 3000 page books. But, the world values are not a NGC or Numismedia estimate, only the same values you'd find in the paper Krause books. The site is here: http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/World-Coin-Price-Guide.aspx You can look up mintages, compositions, and Krause KM#s on that site also (handy resource), but again, the certified pops are not reported in the free area of NGCs tools.
just get yourselves up to the mark with self grading, no need to pay someone for the priveledge and then entomb a beautiful coin in a plastic coffin............
If there were any dealer within even 4 hours drive that had a sufficient selection of world coins I could view in person then your argument is a valid one. When left with the option of buying coins online, buying them certified is the surest way to ensure you are not getting a cleaned or messed with coin. Thus, some of us buy world coins already in their "coffins" (using your words). It's not an issue of getting ourselves "up to the mark" in grading...it's an issue of poor seller photos, and limited supply of coins available to purchase in person. And further, the OP wasn't asking about whether he should have his world coins graded, he was asking where he could find information about slabbed coin values and populations (for coins already "entombed").
i don't know a great deal about the american grading system but the european system lays out clear guidelines about what to look for and how to ascertain your final grading. as for "slabs" the craze hasn't really caught on over here as we tend to use different storage and conservation systems.
Well, I'll tell ya. The values for any coin are no different whether it is slabbed or not - to an educated and experienced collector anyway. And as for the TPG population numbers - they are completely worthless, and meaningless. And for a couple of different reasons. In the first place the TPGs seemingly pay little attention to the pop numbers for world coinage. They seldom update them and there are even examples when the slab cert system doesn't work for a given coin. Then you have the issue of there being so few collectors of world coinage, and even fewer of that number who bother to have their coins slabbed. So that gives a very misleading impression of just how many of a given coin there may be. Yes, the TPGs serve a useful purpose with world coinage in that they add a certain level of security for less experienced collectors. But the TPGs make far more mistakes with world coinage than they do US coinage. And not just mistakes with attribution or identification, they make far more mistakes with slabbing counterfeits when it comes to world coinage. So unless a collector is knowledgeable enough to identify these mistakes, he still can end up losing. And if he is knowledgeable enough, then he doesn't need the TPG to begin with. The one advantage the collector does have with the slabbed coins is that the TPG will stand behind their guarantee. So if you do buy a slabbed counterfeit, it will not be a total loss. But you will still lose for seldom will you recover what you actually spent on the coin. You will only recover what the TPG says the coin is worth. The solution to this of course is easy, it's the same solution that exist when buying any coin. Only buy from trusted and respected sellers, whether that be a dealer or a private individual. For if you are unhappy when you get the coin, they will issue a full refund. And if the coin turns out to be a fake, they will issue a full refund. THAT is the secret to assembling a collection, not slabs.
Hi Doug, thanks for your comments. My replies are below: As for your argument about "educated" collector prices, your simplistic "wisdom" does not jibe with the reality of the market. For example, are you suggesting that there is no market premium for a 1934-35 Melbourne Centennial Australia Florin in a PCGS MS65 holder than for a raw equivalent coin? If you say yes, then you are simply wrong. There are plenty of "educated" and experienced collectors who would pay a premium for the PCGS coin, unless they are able to view both coins in person. Which is the factor that all of this hinges on -- availability of world coins for in person purchase. There just aren't many sellers, and as such, the added security of having a coin graded by a TPG is worth a premium. The reality is that the supply of world coins is sparse in the US, dealers are few and far between, and if I'm going to spend money on them I prefer to get them authenticated by a TPG and at least know they are not likely cleaned, etc. It isn't an issue of "experience", it is a simple issue of availability and security (I can't travel around the country looking at coins in person -- I have a day job!). In addition, I never said populations were useful, I merely provided the link to where they could be found. Your arguments about populations, updating, etc. are all valid and have been regurgitated enough times that anyone who wasn't "born" to the hobby yesterday already knows them. No one (at least not me nor gbroke) is using world coin pops as a marker of rarity, and this was never implied...except by you. Well, I just have to say I disagree with you on this one. Again, it is not an issue of a collector's "knowledge" as you conjecture, but an issue of availability and security. I can not view most world coins I purchase in hand. If I wanted to see all World coins I purchase in hand, I'd have about 2 in my collection. With that being said, the TPG is an additional level of security and reassurance for the buyer (even with the faults mentioned). I still only buy from sellers that allow me to return the coin if I am not pleased. Statistically though, the probability of a return of a raw coin is much higher than for a TPG one, so for rarer issues I usually look for slabbed examples. That is my (and other's) prerogative. Again, I find your insinuation that anyone who buys world coins in slabs is somehow uneducated to be insulting and not based in reality. Your points here are good ones. I only ever buy from trusted sellers, who allow returns. I agree with you that there is nothing magical about the slabs. But an across the board writing off of slabbed coins is also silly, as some of the most beautiful examples of particular issues are indeed "entombed" (whether we like it or not). Regards, -Brandon
Brandon - All I can tell you is this. If you take slabbed coins to a knowledgeable dealer, or a knowledgeable collector, to sell them, they are going to ignore the slab because it is meaningless to them. And that's true not only of world coins but of US coins as well. They will ignore the slab completely and it will not add 1 cent of value to the coin. They will make you an offer on that slabbed coin that will be exactly the same as if the coin were raw. That is reality. Yes, I will agree with you that a coin being in a slab makes it easier to sell. It makes it easier to sell because it expands your buyer audience to include the people who do not have the knowledge to consider the coin on its own merits. But being in the slab doesn't add any value. Now if a coin being in a slab allows you to buy from strangers, even strangers with return policies, and that adds some value for you in the form of convenience, OK, have it your way. And for whatever it is worth, the people who I advise and help them to assemble their collections, I advise them to buy the slabbed coins. But not because it adds any value. I advise it because it adds a little bit extra security for them because they can't always identify a harshly cleaned coin once they get it in their hands.
I collect primarily modern world coins and i see slabs more of a nuisance than a added security. Primarily cause i can't easily handle coins in a slab: the take up too much real estate and don't have albums for them. Not to mention even if a coin is slabbed chances are the slab could be a fake (tons of fakes have come from china) so till you weight and measure the coin, you can't say it is legit. May be i am being a little paranoid
Well, I'm a coin collector, not a coin seller, so I am not too concerned with what a local dealer would offer me. I don't buy coins to turn a profit, so when I buy a coin it is to remain in my collection for many years. If many years down the road I decide to sell it, it is not because I'm looking for a profit, and I will likely not remember nor really care what I paid for it to begin with. The market will handle that piece. In addition, I never pay a premium because of the slab. I always set a maximum price which I am willing to pay for a coin based on current sale values. For example, I purchased a very nice MS64 NGC graded 1946 50 Francs coin from Luxembourg...and I paid less than any raw example of that coin had sold for over the past 6 months. The point is that I felt far more secure purchasing a coin sight unseen that had been graded than one listed in an auction with crappy photos. I also think your assessment that dealers will not pay a premium for a TPG coin is not true. For example, Northeast Numismatics has a very nice selection of world coins. Because they are able to sell your coin easier, they make offers substantially higher if a coin is graded than if it is raw. This somewhat takes the burden of authenticity off of them and puts it back on the TPG. They for the most part take the NGC and PCGS grades at face value when making an offer on a coin. Raw coins would likely be graded more conservatively when given an offer because they are harder to move. If you have two coins you would consider of equal quality (in your eyes) I would dare you to submit them for offer to such a dealer and expect them to come back with equal purchase price offers. In closing I will say this -- I don't particularly enjoy coin shows. If I want to rub elbows with old men I'll volunteer at the local nursing home. I say this because I find many people in my generation (i.e., less than 40 years old) prefer to have choices...and these choices are abundant with internet buying. Much more abundant than the local coin shows I have to choose from with the same old dealers with the same old stock and the same old attitude. One of the things that comes along with purchasing coins sight unseen is minimizing the possibility of dissatisfaction. I have found that purchasing TPG coins is a secure way to collect and have a diverse selection of coins from which to select. I have not found the rampant supposed counterfeit problem that is so often mentioned. I think most of that is a function of paranoia more than reality. Doug, thanks for your insight. I know you are a wise man, and I always appreciate your input/opinion. -Brandon
Hey fellas, I wasn't meaning to cause a big debate lol. I just was wanting to see if there were any decent price guides that I could reference. I would hate to overpay for a coin. I know, I know, buy the coin, not the slab.
I would add a maybe superfluous generality that since the MS 60-70 market is simply not developed for most world coins, I am not sure how much a price guide could help. I remember back in the 80's prices rose and fell quickly for common MS US coins simply because no one had a good baseline on relative rarity and demand for each of these small grade differences. The best "price guide" I can think of would be your own observations of prices realized in auctions of coins you collect. This is why specialists are usually more informed than dealers, and how they have a sizable leg up on other collectors. I know that probably didn't help, and I guess is my way of simply saying, "I don't know". Chris
Strangely enough Brandon, I bought many coins from NEN. And when I sold my collection, I got offers from them. And yes, offers on the same coin slabbed and raw because I had multiples of several. There was no difference. None of the other dealers who gave me offers cared whether any of the coins were slabbed or raw either. Including the one I eventually sold to.
That's how people learn isn't it - by discussion ? And to have a good discussion you usually need to have 2 sides, otherwise it's a pretty short discussion. Now all that said, if you want to find values for world coins, or ancients, then is one of the things I always used - http://www.coinarchives.com/ They charge for the premium service, but even the free service is quite useful. Only problem is there's a lot of the common, more modern coinage that you won't find many records on.
