Let's see your Conder Tokens

This one came from England today.

 

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Some comments

I enjoy rarity of a design, not so much rare edges, though I can understand wanting rare edges if trying to complete a set of all edges mated with a particular design.

I can also understand those who seek any Conder Token varieties rated Scarce, R, RR, RRR or RRRR.

Regarding 'centering dots,' I believe I can see where the engraver of the Spence tokens above, Charles James, lightly engraved concentric circles near edges, where lettering would be punched.

I can imagine a compass-like tool being placed in the hole/dot in the die and creating the outer circles. The centering dot's depression in the die was probably created with a simple rounded punch.

Never having read anything substantive about centering dots, these are my opinions at this time.

 

I too am attracted to rare designs over edge varieties. Off metals would be next for me after design but there are so many designs i am still after that I pass up most off metal examples.

Re:centering marks. Interesting idea Larry. Is this something you're seeing on the 685a? Are there certain letters or parts of the legendaround which the circles seem most pronounced?

 

Re: Centering Dots

No, conderluva, not on the 685a, but rather the obverse of the Midd. 852a further up on this page.

 

Okay, I see. Awesome photo by the way!

 

"I can imagine a compass-like tool being placed in the hole/dot in the die and creating the outer circles. The centering dot's depression in the die was probably created with a simple rounded punch."

Me too, particularly if the circles were spaced along the border where the legend, wreath and other circular features were to be engraved.

However, many tokens exhibit lines on the dies over the entire surface of the token and the spacing of the lines does not correspond to any particular feature of the devices. (See Dr. Sriro's Cheshire 4, Middlesex 159, 282a, 573a, 589 and many others in the Skidmore series.)

Other threads on the Coin People board approach this topic from the standpoint of the circular die features (copy/reducing lines?) and can be found here.

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?/topic/30977-three-faces-of-george-iii-1801/

I've gleaned the following paragraph from that thread.

"In 1790, Boulton learned of the die-engraving machine of Jean Baptiste Bartlemey Dupeyrat (1759-1834) and obtained one for his Soho Mint. It was utilized there to do what it did in other mints – reducing the main device from an oversize metal pattern, then employed hand engravers to add lettering and small symbols by hand punches"

Skidmore, Spence and other engravers probably had access to such machines during the 1790's.





There are also circular features in the obverse die of this Middlesex 389a not visible in the image.

 

Thanks for posting that Yarm. I can't remember how long ago it was, but I do remember seeing a video demo of a copy-down mechanism for die engraving. Might have been part of a history channel program or something similar. Artist rendering for a medal was done on very large ceramic disc. The machine rotated slowly, transferred the design to the much smaller metal die. Pretty neat. I wish I could recall the source of the video though.

Anyway. I have a few tokens that exhibit copy reducing marks. On the Noted Advocates obv, they show pretty clearly.

 

Just found a brief article in the esylum archives on the topic.

"In all, there have been 22 people, firms and mints who had a part in developing this equipment throughout history. It has gone through five stages.

The first stage was little more than a rotating drill (with a string bow like a Boy Scout starting a fire). It was used for cameo cutting.

The second stage applied peddle power to the fixed drill or cutter (peddled like an old sewing machine) for early die cutting.

In the third stage water or steam was added as the power source and devices were cut in dies and lettering would, of course, have to be added later with punches.

Here you have Matthew Boulton using these machines at his Soho Mint and when his partner, James Watt, retired, he made refinements to Boulton's machines. The nationalities of the machinists who made improvements were French, British, Belgian and later, German. The U.S.Mint first had a French Contamin pantograph in 1836, which was replaced by a British Hill machine in 1867, and the French Janvier in 1906. By the third stage it was a 'controlled milling machine' to cut dies. The pattern had to rotate in sync (synchronization) with the diestock being cut, both revolving on separate axis..."
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v07n11a10.html

 

This paragraph is too screwed up for me to make sense of...

Here you have Matthew Boulton using these machines at his Soho Mint and when his partner,
James Watt, retired, he made refinements to Boulton's machines.


Most of the advancements described in the article occurred after the Conder Token Era of 1787-1802.

 

Indeed, there's a few too many thoughts in that so-called paragraph. What I should have said was, 'here's a brief article on the topic of die cutting that makes mention of the apparatus about which I was thinking.'

 

Package arrived from DNW today. There was so much amazing stuff in that last catalog that I had a really tough time narrowing down what to bid on. Been after a few tokens for several years now and wham, they all pop up at once, even duplicates of some of them - decided on this one.

 

Great token. I've not seen that one before.BTW what is DNW?

 

DNW is Dix Noonan Web. London based auctioneer. They typically have one token sale per year, in the fall.

 

Picked this one up for $22. Happy with the quality in hand.

 

Good auction firm. They also have large ancient and world coin auctions twice a year. Their website can be pretty wonky at times though.

Chris

 

Wow...just wow.
I really need to learn how to go about collecting these...I'm in love

 

Mike...

I can appreciate the value of the article, but noticed that many advances came after Conder Tokens.
I've alway been amazed at the great similarity in the varieties of many Conder design varieties, for example,
the Druid tokens, or the John WIlkinson tokens, some of which were struck by Matthew Boulton and
partner James Watt at the Soho Mint.

It seemed likely that some mechanical means of transferring designs, or reducing designs from larger originals
may have been employed, though little is detailed in the literature I've read.

And the similarity in designs struck by various manufacturers, and attributed to various 'engravers,'
seems too great for some mechanical means of copying design elements was not a factor sometimes.
Yet I have been told that central designs were all engraved, actual size, in reverse, but now suspect
that may not be fully accurate.

I think too of a Boulton device which was under development to mechanically copy great works of art,
(more or less an early 'color copier' that would apply paint.) I read that the device was never fully
successful, in its execution, but believe some aspect of a similar technology might have been used
for engraving dies.

 

An odd pattern in the fields attracted me to this Lothian 131 farthing.

 

Cool effect. The lines create a pleasing texture and draw your eyes in to the center design. I like it!

 

Hey Larry,

I think your idea about the Spence piece definitely has merit. My mind just traveled off with what Yarm had mentioned...I had wondered about the circular pattern I noticed on some of my tokens before but never really looked into it at all.