That's because the toning itself is not actually on the metal, it is on the lustrous layer on top of the metal. (if that makes sense) [/QUOTE] As a chemist, I have to comment that that lustrous layer on top of the metal is "the metal".
Those are beautiful! I wonder if we can apply the same reasoning/logic to cars? *walks around the lot looking at an old specimen* "This car has been cleaned!" *walks over to a crusty old weathered looking car* "Ah, gotta love the natural oxidizing build-up!"
As a chemist, I have to comment that that lustrous layer on top of the metal is "the metal".[/QUOTE] As someone who was terrible at chemistry ... I believe you.
This made me laugh. I can see where you are coming from, however with coins, I think it's purely a premium paid for beauty (eye appeal). In any case, there are a lot of collectors that HATE toned coins and only buy or collect shiny white silver or original red copper or typically toned brown copper. I think since there are so many more coins that fall in that latter category, the prices for them are lower. With "naturally" toned coins showing really pretty color or toning patterns (like those above) the populations are much smaller and people tend to get into bidding wars to acquire the few specimens of them. If you relate this to art, if there is some oxidizing or aging process that makes old metalic art (sculptures) more beautiful (like a green patina on copper), I am sure there would some that would pay more for that gracefully aged piece than a brand new shiny copper sculpture. Even with cars, there are purists that will pay more for an original old car, original fabric, original paint, etc (one that hasnt had modern replacement parts put on it or a modern paint job). JMHO
You weren't the first and sure won't be the last I make my share of mistakes, but I make a great deal of effort to make sure my comments are accurate. Yes, it is wrong. Luster on the coin is created by the flowing of the metal when the coin is struck. And it is absolutely the top layer of metal of the coin itself that is lustrous. It is not something that merely sits on top of the metal - it is the metal. And you are correct. Toning is oxidation of the coinage metal. Rust is oxidation on ferrous metals, is damage to that metal. In both cases it is the molecules of the metal itself being eaten away by the oxidation. So there is no way to call it anything but damage. But on coins, at certain stages, that damage can be quite pretty to look at So while toning is damage in a technical sense, it is not thought of as being damage but instead as being an asset. And in a way it is, for the toning on the metal will also be a protective layer that will protect the coin and greatly slow down any additional oxidation as long as the coin is stored correctly. Yes, they are. And there is nothing you can do to completely stop it 100%. But with proper storage you can slow it down enough that you will never be able to notice any additional damage in your lifetime.
Not exactly. Coins, along with all metals, will tone as a reaction to the environment, mainly plain old air, as a way to protect itself from corrosion. When you see copper roofing that has turned green, thats not corrosion, thats whats preventing it from corroding and turning to dust. Without that layer of protection, or toning, your coins are subject to pitting and all kinds of nasty things. Guy
I have to disagree Guy, it is absolutely corrosion. Any form of oxidation is corrosion. Yes, it will form an outer protective layer for the underlying metal. But at the sacrifice of the top surface of the metal, that metal is literally eaten away - it is oxidized. And any coin, or other metal, if allowed to continue to oxidize, or tone, will be pitted eventually. That is why it is so important to store them properly so that you can slow down that oxidation as much as possible.
I would agree with Doug, by definition all toning is damage. A quick background why I say that: In the past toned coins were generally unfavored. They make it hard to see damage to the coin, and were artificially put on many coins to cover up damage. So, white coins were preferred. That is fine, except silver tones easily. So, most toned coins were dipped to remove toning and make them white. The only problem is they are still silver so retone. Dipping is also damage, as it removes thin layers of the surface. You can do this a few times, but after that the coin loses its luster. Basically both dipping and toning are damage of luster. Knowing that, (and the fact that toning can be pretty, I collected toned coins before they were "cool"), collectors began collecting ORIGINAL SURFACE toned coins. The higher prices being paid for toned coins were really for the original surfaces in many ways, since the toned coins back then were never dipped and 100% original, which should be worth more. The problem with all of this started when retoned coins started selling for original toned prices, and then AT started because of high prices for toned coins. Bottom line, (to me), both toning and most white coins have damage. The toning itself is damage but helps protect the rest of the coin. Most white coins are damaged since most have been dipped at least once. If a toned coin has original luster underneath the toning then it could be worth a premium, but that premium should be for the surfaces, not the toning really. This is the disconnect I feel most new toned coin collectors don't get, a lot of the premium some of these coins are worth is not the color, but since this is a more advanced idea most newbies simply do not understand that part and pay higher prices for any coin of color. My thoughts anyway. Take them with a grain of salt that US coins got too weird for me, and I generally am a grumpy young guy, but a year older today. Chris
Well a pre-emptive Happy birthday to you as well! I used to say I was 'getting old' when I turned 30.....Man I wish I was 30 again. :foot-mouth:
Thanks guys, yeah its my birthday. I am not sure where the line between "grumpy old guy" and "grumpy young guy" is, I just know every year I get closer to it.
I suppose it matters more with coins than industrial metals, such as where I work. In the rail business, if rail loses it's scale, or what ordinary people refer to as rust, the piece is then considered damaged and can no longer be used in service because it's considered to have lost it's integrity. But, at some point in it's life a coin is either going to tone to protect itself, or it will simply crumble. Guy
My 2 cents Copper/bronze & Silver will toned but Gold not much unless it been cleaned or dipped. why some don't it maybe how the metal's were mixed or environment toning. but a nicely toned coin will be worth more one person and less for another person matter of taste. I like a naturally toned coin. :kewl:
Well Happy Birthday ! As for the grumpy part - join the club. If my mother were still around to ask she'd tell you that I've been grumpy since the moment I was born ! So I figure what the hey, aint no sense in tryin to change now
If it's any consolation, Doug, after being with my wife for the past 13 years and dealing with her moods, you come off as Mary Poppins! Guy
