I am going to tell you something right now. I love this hobby. With the exception of a few gold coins and the Gobrecht dollars, I have owned every type of US coin made since 1800. And with the exceptions of a few periods during the recession of the early ‘80s, I have been continuously involved with numismatics since 1966. During that time, I have witnessed the removal of silver from circulating coinage, the abolition of the remaining restrictions on gold ownership by American citizens, the silver and gold boom-and-bust period of the ‘70s and ‘80s, and the advent of “slabbing” as the next step beyond simple authentication, among other events. In the early days of my collecting, the biggest concern seemed to be not buying a fake coin, but buying one that was overgraded or harshly cleaned. Of course, there were fakes back then, but they were usually of the key coins or high-dollar type coins, so they were not so much concern for me at that time. Then the ANA began to provide its authentication service in the ‘70s, and that gave a little peace of mind for people like me who were beginning to delve into key, type, and US gold coins. I basically stuck with buying directly from local and mail order dealers I could trust, and I don’t think any of them ever sold me a fake coin during those years. Overgraded, sometimes. Slightly damaged, occasionally. But never a fake. Fast forward to the 2000s. In the first few years of the new century, I was still pretty trusting of dealers and coins offered by strangers. That turned to be a big mistake because I wound up buying a fake from a trusted dealer, and it was not until several years later, after she had passed on, that I found out it was not genuine. Today we have a big problem in this hobby, and that is an avalanche of fake coins coming mainly from China. Susan Headley has done some remarkable work in bringing this to the attention of collectors. This problem has become so bad that even the US Mint has issued an advisory about Chinese fakes. http://coins.about.com/b/2009/11/11/u-s-mint-warns-about-chinese-made-counterfeit-coins.htm Some of these fakes have become so good that they fool even experienced dealers. In this forum recently, I have pointed out three coins that my gut-- and eyes-- tell me are of dubious authenticity. I have pointed out what I believe are problem areas, as well as posting side-by-side photos of the dubious and known genuine coins to make my point. Yet I have been berated for making “unfounded” claims of phony coins, while the main counter to my arguments seems to be “It looks right to me”. One coin that bothered me was a 1917 quarter. There are so many problems with that coin that even if it is genuine, it is not worth anywhere near what was paid for it. Another coin that bothered me was a 1921 Morgan dollar. The general consensus seems to be, “It’s super common, so who would counterfeit such a coin?” But coins of lesser value are counterfeited all the time. I have a 1947 Canadian quarter and a Swiss 2 francs, for example, that are obviously counterfeits, and obviously worth less than a 21 Morgan, and yet someone thought it would still be profitable to counterfeit them. Back to the 21 Morgan, two pictures taken at different times of supposedly the same coin did not match up in certain places-- particularly part of the motto. I showed a side-by-side comosite of these two photos of the “same” coin to some non-collectors, and they immediately recognized discrepancies in the lettering, including lack of some serifs on one of the coin photos. The third coin was an 1881-S that looked a little too perfect. This coin was picked up by someone who apparently has absolutely no knowledge of American silver dollars, but somehow was able to have an MS-66+ coin just fall into his lap-- a coin, I might add, that looks a lot like some of the coins on a website that features fake coins in fake holders. http://s758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/rarecoin/?start=all Who knows, I might be wrong about my suspicions. But merely saying “It looks right to me” without pointing out why my concerns are wrong-- such as showing pictures of known genuine coins that exhibit the same characteristics of the dubious coin-- is not enough, I think. In closing, I want to say that I have no grief with anyone in this forum who is truly interested in coins and numismatics. I have no member on Ignore, and I often click “Like” for coins and ideas that other members have posted. But what I don’t like is fake coins, and the people who make and wittingly sell them. Given the number of even common fakes that seem to be entering our hobby, I think it is only prudent to be on our guard and voice our concerns when a coin doesn’t appear to be kosher to us.
I agree, C'66... and I believe the problem is a lot worse than many collectors realize. I once tried to figure out how many fakes were coming into the U.S. from China alone, based on eBay and other venues... I figured somewhere in the range of 10,000 a week, but I have a feeling that figure may be low. One recently ended auction (discussed here on CT) had the counterfeiter selling Morgans in lots of 100... and sold over three hundred lots in one day; that equates to 30,000 coins daily from one seller alone.
And you are correct, they even fake cheap common average circulated dated coins. I got this Fake Peace Dollar in a lot of 30 silver dollars I got from an older man that said he just want to cash them in for a little more than face value. I know he didn't know that it was fake, as I am sure he had all the coins for 20 years or more. Who knows what coin will be FAKED next? Very Scary!
Ya know? The old addage "kill the messanger" comes to mind. If you see something you don't like, and document the reasons for why you don't like it, that should be enough. If folks don't like your assessment, then they too should document what ever it is they need to prove their point. Makes for spirited and lively discussion. Call 'em as you see's 'em Collector1966.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but with all o the counterfeits popping up on here I feel like a counterfeiter is sharing their works and finding out how to improve them. This is why I am not posting on the counterfeit threads. I'm not going to say who I think is counterfeiting but y'all probably know who I mean, hopefully.
I too have gotten into fruitless exchanges on this forum about counterfeits. Some people just don't like to admit when they're wrong period and will continue looking stupid as long as nobody calls them on it and sometimes beyond. As far as all the counterfeits coming into this country there is a huge problem. And this problem gets compounded by people who see profit and decide to sell Chinese fakes to other people. I'm talking about Americans who for the sake of profit start buying the counterfeits intentionally from China to sell to fellow Americans. Those are the sellers who concern me the most and you see them all the time. What ya gonna do?
I'm not sure they need any help, at least the counterfeiters that produce high end fakes. Their dies are laser cut from genuine examples, and major discrepancies are rare. Reminds me of the TV show "Breaking Vegas" that aired on the history channel a few years back... one episode dealt with the exploits of master forger Louis Colavecchio, and revealed how he was able to correctly identify the composition of slot machine tokens, how he obtained the metal, how he cut his dies using EDM technology, how he minted his coins using a 150 ton press.... and how he would have gotten away with it if not for greed. It even showed that the manufacturer of the genuine tokens refused to believe Colavecchio's were fake. The counterfeits were never fully removed from the mix. Another reasons slot machines are now "coinless".
Every time I see all the fakes out there, http://s758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/rarecoin/?start=all, I get more & more reluctant to buy raw coins on ebay. When I go to a coin show I'll go back to the same dealers I've bought from before. Just going back to the photobucket site listed above, I get a bad feeling about how many fakes are really out there and how many I may own. The only thing to do is buy from a trusted seller and learn to identify fakes.
I have found if it seems too good of a price to be true them run far away. And even though there are some fake slabs showing up if you refine your buying habits to known respected dealers in what ever your collecting you run less chance of getting scammed if you buy certified coins rather than RAW especially online.
I found it odd that the poster who showed those three dates of Morgan dollars (1889-O, 1881-S, 1921) was so anxious to show everyone what the weight of the coins was on his scale and ask what everyone thought. It was almost like "If these coins pass the smell test among serious collectors, then I'm going to buy a bunch from this supplier right away and sell them on eBay". One of those coins he purportedly bought in London. If he had bought it from a reputable London dealer like Baldwin's, there would be no need to rush over here to ask people for their opinion.
I only buy from the US Mint and from local dealers. I've just been getting back into numismatics and dipping my toe in the waters, and it all feels too iffy to me to be buying stuff off ebay. The US Government should be fighting to end the import of the counterfeits.
Regarding that 1881-s; there are two collector/dealers who responded on that thread who I value opinion wise. Both stated that they saw nothing wrong with the coin. Still, when I viewed the OP's pics, my first impression was that there's something funny going on with this piece. Mind you, I'm just a casual collector of these coins, but based on the op's pics? I'd pass on that one. The bottom line is you have to follow your gut feeling, and if it don't feel right, PASS.
It's really tough for those just coming into this hobby. The increasing number of counterfeit Coins & Paper Currency that is entering our economy, is just one of the many problems this community faces, and it's only going to get worse. Buying " Raw " Numismatic Collectibles is not, for the un-educated, unseasoned collector. IF you are going to collect " Raw " pieces, be certain you know what your buying is authentic. That takes time to learn. So I recommend you begin with spending time with a Reputable & Trusted Dealer, and learn. This hobby can be fun, but you also have to invest yourself into it. LEARNING IS FUNDAMENTAL.
A Valid Message Of Concern!! I believe that without fear of contradiction, I speak for the majority in stating that we generally support your observations, and are appreciative of any arguments which you may objectively present. We will defend your right to present the facts as you may see them. However, that doesn't preclude the option of subjective incomplete agreement without negative intent. Not intending to belabor unsupported subjective denial, but based on my experiences since the late "40's" where my general abhorrence of "fiat currency" has generated an almost insane accumulation (NOT collecting) addiction to metal coins having a respectable intrinsic value. In my personal accumulation handling of at least a 7 figure coin quantity, I have seen soooo many exceptions to the general rules applied to the various coin types, caused by numerous conditions such as striking through grease, randomly filled dies, worn dies, etc..... I had friends/assistants who also enjoyed the benefits of my accumulating, and while sorting, grading, counting, would ask my opinion as a scientist/equipment-designer, how seemingly illogical conditions would occur on the coins we were handling We would stop the normal activity and delve into a physics class where I would explain applicable fundamentals of metalurgy. extrusion, meltal flow characteristics, dissimilar metal statification, effects of planchet contaminants/imperfections/lubricants, oxidization, etc. At this period in my process of accumulating, I will generally not post an unsupported statement, but often think I can locate a specimen that would negate the argument presented. I've received several expensive suspicious coins which I thought might be unoriginal. I've submitted these coins first to associates who evaluate/appraise, and after inconclusive response, submitted to "top tier" TPG who returned, sans opinion. I just don't know anymore!! We appreciate the constructive discussion and posts in the various threads which have expanded our understandings/knowledge, and trust that a few subjective thoughts will not diminish your considerate efforts. :thumb: Rich
I agree but now I am seeing even honest dealers get taken and sell fakes that they can't even tell are fake. I've been leaning towards just buying TPG coins from now on.
It's sad that it is coming to the point where even honest dealers are being taken by these fakes. Part of the fun for me was going through raw US gold here in Japan and trying to pick out raw coins that would grade Mint State (Japanese dealers don't really care about American slabbed grades-- to a lot of them, an MS-61 is actually an AU). So I have been able to pick up a few "AU" gold pieces here and get an MS designation from a major TPG in the US. Only once (so far) has a coin been returned as fake-- by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS-- but neither the dealer nor I could find anything wrong with the coin. At least the dealer was gracious enough to give me a refund on that.
