Does anyone know how to identify lasered gold coins? I have heard from a couple of dealers about when this is done (to make hairline scatches less obvious, for example).
Not an idiot question dear fellow. Boxeldercoin is right on. I'll add just a bit....it's a way of moving the metal on a coin to make it look "higher grade" than it actually is. A rotary tool is usually employed to achieve this effect.
I'm out of my element here, but I've heard that the PCGS "sniffer" machine is quit adept at exposing them.
I'd imagine..... Read more here.........http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=17156
No, it is not. It does not have any similarity whatsoever with whizzing. In fact it is nearly the opposite. Say you have a coin that has a light scratch on it, or several hairlines. What a coin doctor does is use a laser to "heal" that scratch or hairlines - it makes them disappear. It makes it so that only a very experienced eye can even see that it was done. And then only with high magnification.
Again, no. The "sniffer" does not detect that a laser has been used on a coin, nor does it detect that a coin has been whizzed. The "sniffer" only does 1 thing - it detects the presence of a foreign substance on the coins. What you are doing is mixing up two entirely different things - Secure Plus and the Sniffer. Secure Plus is what allows PCGS to detect that a laser was used on a coin. (It's not even needed for whizzing for that can be detected by eye.) However, and it seems most people don't understand this, Secure Plus can only detect the use of a laser after the fact. In other words, the only way that Secure Plus works is if a coin is submitted under the Secure Plus grading tier - twice. Example - a coin is submitted to PCGS for grading. It is not submitted under Secure Plus. The coin is graded MS64 and returned to the submitter. Later, that person sells his coin. The buyer (who happens to be a coin doctor) then cracks the coin out, uses his laser to remove several hairlines and then he submits the coin to PCGS again. This time the coin is graded MS65, or even MS66, by PCGS. The coin doctor gets his coin back from PCGS and sells it for a whole lot more money. Now you're going to ask why did PCGS do this ? Why didn't they detect that the coin was lasered ? Easy answer, because they can't. It cannot seen - unless it is subjected to high magnification. And that is not done when doing standard grading. That's where Secure Plus comes in. Had the original buyer above submitted his coin under the Secure Plus grading tier, that costs extra, the coin would been photographed with a very high resolution digital camera that captures even the tiniest detail and the tiniest flaw. This means those hairlines on the coin that held the grade down are captured forever. That photograph is then stored in the PCGS database. Now, the same scenario comes about. The original buyer sells his coin, a coin doctor buys it. He cracks the coin out, uses his trusty laser and basically erases the hairlines. Then he submits the coin to PCGS, again under Secure Plus. This time, when PCGS gets the coin, they again that take a high resolution picture of the coin and that new picture is run through the database. This time the coin, without the hairlines, is identified as having been doctored. The coin is rejected for grading and returned. However, if that coin doctor submits his doctored coin under one of the regular grading tiers, (and he'd have to be an idiot not do so because they know how to read too) the coin is not photographed again, its picture is not run through the database, and again the doctoring escapes detection and the coin is upgraded and retuned in a new PCGS slab. Once gain to be sold to the unsuspecting public.
Thanks for your expert explanation, it is why you are a true numismatist. My guess is that there are a lot of lasered coins out there. I spoke with one of the TPGs this morning and was told that the graders can see lasered coins as such. Probably only if they are badly done. Any record of how much $$$ the TPGs have to pay to pull lasered coins from the market?
Doug's explanation is excellent. My understanding of the lasering is that the finely focused laser literally melts the surface of the gold allowing it to flow in and fill the hairline scratch. Now since the focused area of the beam is not much wider than the width of the hairline scratch you can imagine it would not show up much. Under high magnification though it would be noticed that the flowlines on the surface of the coin from the striking would be disrupted as well since the melting from the laser would "heal" those too.
Just to add that if the coin was repaired (doctored) with putty rather than a laser then is where the PCGS sniffer comes into play. The sniffer is also used to dectect chemicals used to tone many coins as well. It is my understanding that lasering is more often used on proof coins, and puttying is more common on circulation coins. And both of these practices have led to law suites being filed.
Doug...great explanation! ...but let's say the new owner of the coin (after it's been laser-whizzed and resubmitted under a non-Secure Plus grading tier) resubmits it for Secure Plus grading, how does PCGS know this is the same coin "laser-whizzed" or a different coin altogether? ...assuming we're talking about an MS66/67 coin?
It kind of works the same way as fingerprints. You have a partial print but there are enough matching points to make an identification.
Conder's answer is correct and doesn't require any further explanation. I am merely responding because of your choice of words in your response. Mostly because it's a pet peeve of mine. It's your use of the word/phrase - laser-whizzed. It's stuff like that is partially responsible for causing people to misunderstand things entirely. In the first place the two words are completely contradictory. Whizzing a coin covers the coin with fine scratches - lasering a coin removes fine scratches. But other readers come along and read that, and pretty soon they are using the term too. Then somebody else sees it, and they use it on some other forum. And once something is seen in print, no matter how wrong it is, it comes to be accepted. That is not good for the hobby. So hopefully, if somebody reads that, they will also read this.
