A coin is slabbed and graded by one of the top two TPGs. Coin is cracked out of the slab at some point in time for album placement. Irrespective to value, on the grade only, does the coin lose the grade it was given by the TPG because it was cracked out of the slab?
Yes and no. No...it doesn't "lose the grade" in the sense that it is suddenly no longer whatever grade it was. It's still the same coin, still in the same condition. If it was an MS-62 coin before (please note...I didn't say if it was GRADED MS-62...I said if it WAS an MS-62) then it is still an MS-62 coin...presuming, of course, no damage was done to it while cracking the slab. However...in terms of being able to "validate" any sort of grade, yes...it's lost it's grade. In this sense, you can no longer say "PCGS graded this coin MS-62" and have that mean anything...since, bluntly, you can't prove it. Sure, you may have kept the label from the slab, you may even have kept the parts of the slab. But..bottom line...you can't PROVE that's the same coin you cracked out of that slab. Now...might some folks "trust" you, if you document what you've done, or if they have a relationship with you? Sure. And, let's face it..it IS the coin PCGS gave and MS-62 to...so, one presumes it's at least PRETTY darn close to an MS-62 quality coin. But the fact remains...once the coin's out of the slab, it's no longer a "PCGS MS-62" coin...and any grade assigned is simply a matter of opinion and trust. The coin could, of course, be submitted BACK to PCGS...and, more often than not, would receive the same grade (though, any search on this site or others will let you know quite quickly that grades to "change"...but that's a whole different topic *heh*) but PCGS would, indeed, have to re-grade the coin. They don't give it any sort of "secret hidden marking" to identify it and say "Oh yes...this was coin so-and-so" once it's out of its serial numbered slab. So... No..it doesn't magically become something other than what it was, simply by virtue of being out of the slab. But yes...it loses "verification" of its grade, and as a result, quite likely much of the market value that went with said grade.
Basically, yes. To you, you'll always know that coin graded MS6x at NGC/PCGS. If you want to sell it, you can include a photo of the top of the slab but people may not believe it. If you resubmit the coin, it could grade higher, lower or the same. That slab was simply one company's thought on that coin at that moment in time. By cracking it out, it just became more subjective again.
Good thought provoking question. I just cracked out a couple MS-65 Buffalo nickels last night for my US type set. I'm not that worried about their value. I saved the labels and they do look like good MS-65s. It's not like somebody's going to try to tell me they're just a MS-62 or a 63. Maybe they'd try to argue they're a 64, but I don't care. I've got a stack of labels for stuff I've cracked out for albums. And a few I've taped to the album behind the coin. I think some people you could show them the labels and probably convince them and others you wouldn't. I'm sure it would be easier to re-sell leaving in the slabs. But it all depends on what you want to do with them. When I was leaving the ANA show Friday, somebody was sitting at the Stacks counter with a whole pile of busted up slabs. They couldn't wait to leave the show to get the coins out. The original buyer at least knows the truth. That might be good enough for a lifetime or more.
Excellent post! However, doesn't the new PCGS Security+ service record diagnostics that can be used to identify coins that have been busted out...and associate it with all its corresponding documentation? ...assuming, of course, it was originally graded with Security+.
Thanks If my understanding of Secure Plus is correct, then essentially you're correct. The coins are, if I remember what I read, laser scanned, and this produces an "image" that can identify a coin as unique among all others of its type. Of course, if we were to apply such technology to the original question, then where does that leave us? Well...the new "buyer" would STILL have to either trust the seller...OR, pay whatever fee is charged for authentication of a Secure Plus coin, AND have it re-slabbed... In other words...the same thing he'd have had to do before ANYway...though, admittedly, I suppose secure plus DOES give the seller a way to say "I guarantee this coin is the same coin" and feel comfortable making such a promise. So this still all sorta gets back to the original point, imo : It's still the same coin...but the authenticity of its grade must be re-established.
Depends how long ago it was graded. If it was in a green PCGS holder, chances are it will move up a grade if resubmitted.
If the coin was accurately graded to begin with NO. It should not matter if a coin is raw or slabbed a 65 is a 65. Now there are too many people out there that buy the plastic and not the coin and could not grade a coin to save their hide. To them first off they probably would not give the coin a second look or if they did wouldn't have the slightest clue of the accurate grade and would think (well its not slabbed there must be something wrong with it other wise it would be graded.
The reality of the market place is this: --If you crack-out a coin to mount it in a 2x2 to be displayed with other like coins in a folder, when it's time to sell the coin you will take a hit. I speak from personal experience on this, having once cracked out PCGS MS63 Double-Eagles, followed by selling them raw on eBay a number of years later. The prices realized were decidedly less than if they had been in a slab even though the condition had not changed one iota. However, the loss of premium in the absence of a slab, was only slightly more than what the grading services would have charged to put the coin back in a holder. And so in the end it really didn't matter. Of course this is an example of common date Double-Eagles in mid-grade uncirculated. The mathmatics change dramatically in the case of something rare that also happens to be in pristine condition. Only an idiot, no matter his grading skills, would send such a coin across the auction block raw, unless he already sent it in and it came back with problems noted by the service. And so for real rare high grade specimens, the assumption is indeed that there must be something wrong with it if its raw, and most prudent collectors would hesitate bidding. This in turn would result in the price spiraling downward, and it has nothing at all to do with anyone's grading ability on the part of the seller or the buyer beyond the ability to recognize what a "nice" coin looks like, and the ability to read a catalog entry to determine rarity.
But the digital fingerprint that was produced that will allow it to be identified again is only checked if the coin is resubmitted under the Secure Plus tier. If it is just submitted under a regular tier it will not be compared to the fingerprint (Because under this tier it isn't scanned) so it could come back as a different grade.
I think the whole digital finger print thing from PCGS is of spurious value in the market place. So what if the coin can never be upgraded by PCGS, does anyone even care? The only real value it has would be for a paranoid collector who once believed Saddam Hussin actually had weapons of mass destruction, and who now believes his coins, if ever stolen, will be able to be traced back to him because he put them in secure plus holders. Good luck on that last point; --I realize it does happen from time to time that a stolen coin is returned to its rightful owner-- but to pay an extra $65 a coin for that is way beyond what I would pay for the service.
I believe the price for Secure Plus has come down some (I suspect not enough people are willing to spend the bucks for it so they lowered the price to encourage more use, and more money to them.) Crack out artists care. Of course they can still submit under the regular tier and get upgrades. Frankly the ability for the system to recognize coins that have been stolen and then resubmitted is the only good thing I see in it. Unfortunately it would only work well if all coins were scanned. (That was going to be the case with their Expert System they unveiled back in 1991 but they scrapped it probably because they realized it would end the crack out resubmission game.)
