Breaks in Luster: Slider vs. Bag Marks?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by kanga, Jul 23, 2011.

  1. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    QUESTION 1:
    You look at a coin and see breaks in the natural luster on some of the high points.
    Does the CAUSE of the breaks in luster make a difference between AU and lower MS?
    If the breaks were caused AFTER the coin left the Mint distribution process then, of course, the coin is no longer MS.
    But if the breaks were caused DURING the Mint production/distribution process is it still MS?

    If your answer to QUESTION 1: is 'No, the coin is AU in both cases', then you do NOT need to address QUESTION 2:.

    QUESTION 2:
    If your answer was 'Yes, the CAUSE of the breaks DO make a difference between AU and lower MS', then the BIG question.
    How do you tell the difference between a slider and a MINT caused break?

    Obviously experience would be the best way.
    But experience has to start somewhere.
    Are there any general guidelines to at least get started with?
     
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The minting process is over once the coin is ejected from the press. Anything that happens to the coin after that instant in time can be considered as either contact marks, wear, or damage. So the answer to your question of -

    "Does the CAUSE of the breaks in luster make a difference between AU and lower MS?" - is no.

    The definition of a slider is a coin that is actually AU, but many people including the TPGs will grade the coin as MS because the luster breaks are slight/minimal. That said, luster breaks do not occur at the mint. They typically occur due to light wear either from the coin actually being circulation or from mishandling by an owner of the coin.
     
  4. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    So coins bagged at the Mint (and I'm talking before 1965) will not have luster breaks from rubbing against other coins or the bag?
    I would have thought so.
    Is that one of those things that even fool TPG now and again?

    And I haven't even addressed coins that aren't fully struck and therefore have high points with the original planchet surfaces.
    Or does metal movement obliterate that?
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No, they do not have luster breaks. It takes more than that to make a luster break. That's why you can even get coins in change from a business and those coins will still grade MS. It takes a good bit of wear to make a break in the luster. And you can think of Morgan dollars, some of them remained in bags for close to a hundred years, and yet they still grade as MS and properly so.



    No struck coin will have original planchet surfaces because they cannot. This is because that metal that you see on the high points of a coin that was not fully struck is not the same metal that was on the surface of the planchet, rather it is metal that was inside the planchet and was forced up and through the original planchet surface. The original planchet surface is obliterated when a coin is struck and that metal is replaced with metal from the inside of a planchet.

    For some reason people seem to think that the original planchet surface remains intact when a coin is struck and that it just lifts up as the metal underneath it tries to flow upwards or downwards to fill the recesses of the die. Nothing could be further from the truth. Because of its cohesion properties, when metal flows under high pressure the metal on the surface pretty much remains static (in its original place) and it is the underlying metal that is forced upwards and through the original layer.

    No, you will not see luster on the less than fully struck high points. But that is because luster is not formed until the flowing metal meets the resistance of the die face. It is at that point that the metal then begins to flow sideways rather than upwards/downwards and it is that sideways movement that creates the luster.
     
  6. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    Well, let's see if I can put this info into practice.
    If I'm going to sell a coin, I want to get the description as right as I can.
    Obviously good images will help with that.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's takes a bit of practice and experience, but you can tell the difference between weakly struck high points that have no luster, and a break in the luster due to wear. For one thing the metal will have a different texture, and it will be a different color. Weakly struck high points wil be a bit rougher where wear will be smoother as a general rule. And wear will be a slightly darker shade than weakly struck. But both will be a darker shade than lustrous metal.
     
  8. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    I've got the Coin Values book Making the Grade which should get me looking in the correct places for Washington Quarters.
     
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