why NGC coins do not cross to PCGS (a theory)

I've only attempted four crossovers, but was successful with three, a 1921 MS64 Peace dollar, a 1925-S MS64 Peace dollar and a 1911 PR63 Cameo Barber quarter. The one not crossing was a 1928-S MS63 Peace dollar.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

When you all say "DNC" are you all stating that it did not cross because you put a minimum grade on it? It was my understanding that when sending them into the tpg you could leave the minimum grade blank and take what ever they graded it at. Is that not the case? Are you all including minimum grades?

Then I have to wonder what all the fuss is about the piece of plastic surrounding a coin. While I will admit I prefer PCGS holders, it really does not matter to me if the coin is NGC or ICG or ANACS.

 

Several years ago I submitted a few dozen gem wheaties in NGC holders to PCGS. About 70% crossed fine. I was surprised it wasn't higher. Since then I have crossed another 20 or more, in different series, with about the same success rate.

The chief problem is really the 3rd side, as others have pointed out. For either company to accept a cross they have to feel that hidden edge damage would not change things. So the coin must really appear to be a little better than its grade for crossing success.

Examples:
1) You submit an NGC AU50 CBH to cross at grade with PCGS. The grader looks at the coin in the NGC holder and feels it is, at best, an AU50. They won't crack and cross it because any damage to the edge might lower the grade. Too risky.
2) You submit a PCGS WLH graded MS64 and ask NGC to cross it. The grader looks at it in its PCGS holder and feels it warrants an MS65 grade. The coin is cracked. Rim scuffs are present. The coin crosses at MS64.
3) You crack out the coin in #1 above and send it raw to PCGS. The edges are fine and the coin grades AU50.

Lance.

 

But Lance I thought you had to tell them the minimum grade you would accept is AU50? If you left that field blank as far as I am concerned they should cross it at what ever grade they thought it was.

 

Unless otherwise stated, and for the purposes of this discussion, we assume that a cross attempt means same grade or better. (Yes, you can ask for a cross at a lower minimum grade. But you have to say so on the submission form. Leaving it blank implies same grade or better.)

 

But.... it makes for a better 'read' than everyone just saying "I agree".

 

Interesting - I thought it was leave it blank to let it come across even at a lower grade.

Either way I guess the only reason I see to cross a coin to PCGS is for the registry set or because you like the holder better. So far I don't think I will cross any coins. Oh well - interesting discussion and good points about the third side.

Thanks Lance.

 

I knew I should never have opened this silly thread but I have a different take on the subject.

My take is there is a BIG difference between asking someone to "assign" a grade to a coin VS "justifying" the current grade.
Yes PCGS has a vested interest in not crossing coins but such allegations, if provable, would most certainly bring their multi-million dollar dynasty crumbling down along with the current market prices of ANY and ALL current PCGS Graded coins.

I would think (and folks really oughta get on board with this) that instead of bolstering their position via "unprofessional" conduct such as what has been presented that PCGS would instead stick to their standards and business practices therefore insuring that you kind folks don't lose your butts on your coin interests.

 

I guess they could have set it up that way. But I'm sure a lot of folks wouldn't be happy about a downgrade so PCGS made the current grade as the default. You have to specify that you'd be okay with a lower grade. Makes sense, I suppose.

I have never tried a cross to NGC. I'm guessing it's the same.

Everyone has their own reasons for preferring one TPG over another. PCGS has been very good about their guarantee in my experience, and NGC has been very disappointing. PCGS slabbed coins tend to sell for more. I prefer the look of the slab. And from a presentation standpoint I like having all the coins in a set match. Storage is easier, too. Lastly, I use PCGS's website to manage 99% of my inventory.

I do have some registry sets but I'm not rabid about rankings. I just collect what I like regardless of registry points.
Lance.

 

I remember Don Willis responding to this assertion. It went something like this: "Nonsense. Why wouldn't we want great coins in our slabs and out of a competitors?"

 

Because you're trying to create the perception among the members in your captive forums that PCGS has higher quality standards than NGC? Just a wild guess, Don.

 

GDJMSP I entirely agree with you. I have purchased coins which look great to my eye but have low numerical grades for both low and high prices simply because (1) I really liked the coin and thought the price was low or (2) I was willing to pay a bit extra for a real gem in a low grade casket. I'm talking Morgans in particular where one can get some very nice 64s which look better / have greater appeal than 65/66 coins. With regards to NGC vs PCGS I recently picked up a set of the special 2004-5 nickels graded PF70 by NGC. I got them at a great price ~ $ 12 each. I put them under my 100X microscope and each and every one of them looks perfect - NO FLAWS! I got a great deal. I care not for the brand of plastic. These coins are gems! (No doubt the PCGS variants would have been priced much higher)

 

I agree with the statement that prices vary in the extreme. I have paid up to 10x the retail price guide price for great color/toning on a coin with a low base price (for example $70 on a $7 price guide coin).

However my statement that PCGS coins sell for more (on average) than NGC coins of the same grade was based purely on the online PCGS and NGC price guides.
I think the NGC price guide is based on auction results -- but I admit i have no idea how PCGS comes up with their price guide prices (however I am thinking
it's probably also based on auction results). Someone correct me if I am wrong.

For example:

On a 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln in PR65BN

- PCGS lists the coin at $35,000
- NGC lists the coin at $13,000

That's a huge difference.

The only possible conclusion one can draw from this price discrepancy is the NGC PR65BN, which lists for only $13,000, must be roughly equivalent to a PCGS PR63+BN (Which would also be in that same price range)


One thing I have noticed (and totally agree with you) is sometimes coins sell for way under and/or way over these prices based the characteristics of individual coins.

Bottom line is .. I think NGC gets a bad rap and is not as bad or as lax as some people seem to think. However it does vary based on the various denominations and series.

 

I would agree that NGC does get "pushed around" by the community. If you can pick up a gem in an NGC slab and get it at a great price I think you have won twice - that is if your primary interest is the purchase of a great coin for a collection. NGC was also selected for some key grading opportunities like the 1933 St Gaudens, and the 1804 dollars at the Smithsonian. I tend to think that NGC coin values are the more accurate metric of the price of a coin. (Disclosure : I have no business interests or membership with NGC). PCGS seems to have a well hyped marketing strategy. One can get coins at typically 1/3 - 1/2 their price guide values. I would take the PCGS price guide values with a grain of salt.

 

There is an interview this month at the NGC site on the issue:

"MR: Mark, in the minds of some folks PCGS is preferred over NGC. This is seen in the market as well as with auction prices for equally-graded coins of the same issue, and with a comparison of sight-unseen bids. How do you respond to this?
MS: Actually, I see it as NGC-graded coins being good values. I believe our coins are as good or better. A lot of what people are referring to is the registry phenomenon. I have a concern of an irrational exuberance for plastic. If you want to fill a hole in your registry set, and you’re not critically looking at the coin, shame on you because over a period of time there are things that the consumer needs to look at. Number one he should buy the coin not the holder.
Number two, he should work with a very good dealer who is knowledgeable, has a track record and looks out for your best interests. Thirdly, and more importantly, you should become your best expert by learning about coins. So, for the coins that may bring more in PCGS holders, over a period of time their prices should come down to more realistic levels.
We’ve had extraordinary high price levels for copper coins because there was a registry group that was “drinking the Kool-aid” and putting ridiculous prices on them. There was a recent auction result for a 1944 Walker in MS 68 of $110,000. That’s insane, especially since the coin came out of our MS 67 “star” holder! That’s dangerous because the coin winds up with a collector at, say $120-125,000, and I can assure you that there are going to be more MS 68 1944 Walkers made if a service is honestly grading the coins. If a grading service has software that flashes that you just graded a 1944 Walker in MS 68, the pressure is there for the final grade to be lowered to protect the first coin’s value, maintaining the perception that that service’s coins are worth more."

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259&

 

I don't know about that. Another possible conclusion is the PCGS guide is inflated just to get the public to conclude as you're concluding. They already got a marketing plan that's dependent on the suppression of speech to hold it together, so that'd hardly be a new low for them.

 

IMO, there is little difference between NGC and PCGS grading in MS60-65 grades. It's at 66 and above that the difference is visible. IMO of course.

 

good point ...

 

I noticed that above 66 and especially at 70 the prices are very different between both. So, my question is do I base a purchase price depending on which holder the coin is in? In other words, if a 70 ngc coin shows a price guide of roughly 500.00 and the pcgs at 70 shows a price of 1100.00, do I base my decision on the brand of holder as well as the price of the coin in question? I know "buy the coin" and not the holder but with huge differences in price guides at a specified grade how would I know which would be the better value overall?

Hope that made sense~